Non-permitted carry on private property

[Cookies]

I have a question for those more enlightened than myself. Is a person, who is legally allowed to own a firearm but does not have a carry permit, allowed to carry on a 3rd parties property with owner consent?

Open or concealed, or does it matter?

[Oh Shoot]

It is not specifically an exception to the unlawful possession/carrying statute, but you'd have to really be doing something noteworthy to be busted for it I'd think, but it of course could happen, like at a party that gets busted or whatever.

There's the "sport shooting" out, and where legal to discharge a firearm,  you were intending to plink at least a bit, eh?

The only difference I know of it TN statutes regarding concealed vs not, is that an unloaded firearm, not concealed "on or about" the person (and no ammo in immediate vicinity) is an out for the unlawful possession/carrying statute.

- OS

Edited March 3, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[Cookies]

I ask for 2 reasons. First, I'm scheduled to attend an event on a farm that will be attended by several LEO and many permitted civilians. The landowner is a dear friend of mine, and has asked that everyone come armed. He is under the assumption that his permission is enough, but I'm not so sure. There will be no sport shooting, he just prefers that I am armed.

The second part, I work for a very small company, just 4 of us, and I am the only one without a carry permit. My employer desires for everyone to be armed while on payroll, I definitely have his consent as well, but I'm concerned with the legality of my situation.

[Oh Shoot]

No advice here I'm afraid.

There really isn't a specific defense for that anywhere in 39-17-1307 or 39-17-1308, so I suppose a hard nosed LEO could indeed haul one in for it, however unlikely or not that would be at such a gathering (sounds like pretty much a "good ole boy" type deal, LEOs being personal friends of the landowner and all like that?)

Guess you could open carry and be sure you're ammo free!

- OS

Edited March 3, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[Cookies]

Thank you for your help. I looked those codes up, and could not find a specific defense in any of them.

[JayC]

10 hours ago, Cookies said:

I ask for 2 reasons. First, I'm scheduled to attend an event on a farm that will be attended by several LEO and many permitted civilians. The landowner is a dear friend of mine, and has asked that everyone come armed. He is under the assumption that his permission is enough, but I'm not so sure. There will be no sport shooting, he just prefers that I am armed.

The second part, I work for a very small company, just 4 of us, and I am the only one without a carry permit. My employer desires for everyone to be armed while on payroll, I definitely have his consent as well, but I'm concerned with the legality of my situation.

IANAL, carrying on private land even with the owners permission is generally considered illegal, there are a number of exceptions but without more information it's impossible to say if any of them would apply.  But, asking a bunch of people to show up armed some of which are LEO's seems odd.  Are you training, protecting livestock, or otherwise involved in a sporting purpose?  Because those would be your best bet for legally being armed.

At work is another story, there is a provision in the law to carry at your 'place of business', without a permit, this was used by businesses to allow their employees to be armed back before the HCP law, without knowing more details it's likely you qualify under that provision of the law  but it's limited to your 'place of business'.

Why not just go get a permit and be done with it? 

 

[Cookies]

Than you for clearing that up about my work. A local police told me as much today, it's not recommended, but technically not unlawful. 

He also suggested that I "move in" at my friends house after 1700 Friday of the event. I can't be troubled about failure to report address change this way.

There will be about 5 Leos that he is friends with there, and about 40 others that he doesn't know. His 20 acre farm is centrally located in an area of about 2000 acres that will be used by the public for a weekend gathering. His property is actually going to contain vendor areas and the security tent. His concern is safety of his family, as well as protection of his property and livestock. He does not ask me to provide security for the event, just to help watch over his home and barns from drunks and meth heads, and to help direct people walking in from the road to certain areas on his farm. At no point during the weekend should I be more than 200 yds from his house, nor will I be participating in events or consuming alcohol. 

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Cookies said:

Than you for clearing that up about my work. A local police told me as much today, it's not recommended, but technically not unlawful. 

He also suggested that I "move in" at my friends house after 1700 Friday of the event. I can't be troubled about failure to report address change this way.

There will be about 5 Leos that he is friends with there, and about 40 others that he doesn't know. His 20 acre farm is centrally located in an area of about 2000 acres that will be used by the public for a weekend gathering. His property is actually going to contain vendor areas and the security tent. His concern is safety of his family, as well as protection of his property and livestock. He does not ask me to provide security for the event, just to help watch over his home and barns from drunks and meth heads, and to help direct people walking in from the road to certain areas on his farm. At no point during the weekend should I be more than 200 yds from his house, nor will I be participating in events or consuming alcohol. 

Good lord. The whole thing sounds dicey to moi. Good luck there, Mr. Not Providing Security But Making Sure You're Armed So You Can Draw Down On Drunks and Meth Heads!

- OS

[Sidecarist]

Run away... with no training, or standing as profesional security being ASKED to protect others WILL be a legal nightmare if something goes down.

Run away.... 

[Cookies]

It's a nightmare. He didn't find out about all this until last week. And I'm not one to "draw down" on folks. Most drunks and junkies I can handle with a stern word or a good slap. I will be paired for the most part with a county deputy that he is close with. He will be staying at the farm house all weekend. His department has scheduled him to work only 1 shift there, so the remainder of the time he will be there with me and my friends brother. 

 

The last time that an event like this went off, it wasn't as bad as expected. There were only a few fights, but lots of theft and vandalism, mostly done by out of towners. 

I am very comfortable going all weekend with no weapon other than my mind, and have expressed as much. But my buddy is pro 2a, almost to the point of being militant about it. I came here not to incite trouble. Just to inquire about a part of state law that I wasn't familiar with. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

You MUST be a licensed armed guard to protect persons or property in an official capacity and that sounds like exactly what you are doing. It makes no distinction whether you are doing it for a friend or a complete stranger.

Also, slapping someone is an assault and unless they tried to harm you first. Slap someone first and you will go to jail for it. Even if someone is trespassing you cannot touch them unless they resist your request to leave the property. But even so if I had someone refusing to leave my property I would let LE handle it instead of risking an escalation. And under no circumstances should you draw your firearm unless you ARE in imminent danger or being seriously hurt or injured. Drawing a firearm without it could get you charged with aggravated assault, especially if you point the firearm. Law Enforcement can get away with it but a civilian will learn a very hard lesson if they draw their firearm without justification. 

What kind of even is it that you are expecting drunks and meth heads? Sounds to me like a really bad idea to be around anyone like that.

Are you a resident of Tennessee? Your IP comes from New York. We have had a rash of northerners coming here asking odd questions, hoping this isn't the same.

 

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, Cookies said:

He didn't find out about all this until last week.

There's an event for a couple of thousand people on his farm, with vendors and such, and he just found out about it last week?

Edited March 4, 2017 by monkeylizard

[bud]

[JayC]

Yeah something is not right about this picture at all...  

[Randall53]

If Meth and crackheads are expected to crash said party.....I would NOT be interested anyway. Friend or no friend.

[Randall53]

13 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Are you a resident of Tennessee? Your IP comes from New York. We have had a rash of northerners coming here asking odd questions, hoping this isn't the same.

 

Hmmm...sounds like maybe we are being probed......not a good thing IMO

[monkeylizard]

I try to avoid being probed.

[Sidecarist]

Turnabout is fair play... now that through OP is being probed back there's silence. 

[Cookies]

I'm definitely not from new York. Blame att for that. I don't even have an interest in traveling north of I 40. 

The events are mostly taking place on adjoining farms. His back hay field is flat and dry, so they approached him about using it for some vendors. The promoters are going to be responsible for all clean up, and give us all free passes and some goodies, but we're not extremely enthused about participating. 

Drunks and meth heads sound worse than it really is, probably won't be a handful of idiots. I talked with the land owner and his deputy friend again last night, and the deputy agrees that being armed is not legal, but "concealed means concealed".

He also mentioned that if I kept myself to the home and it's curtilage it would be a different situation. After studying the legal definition of curtilage, I'm left almost as confused. 

At least I found a site here with a wealth of knowledge during my search, so it's not a total bust. 

[bersaguy]

1. I have a CWP and there is no way you could drag me to that event. The reason for the event or anything else has not been made clear as I can read and just knowing that a bunch of Strangers, possibly dope smokers and Meth heads would be enough for me to put the brakes on and run not walk away from that invitation..........jmho

[btq96r]

On 3/2/2017 at 9:08 PM, Cookies said:

...I am the only one without a carry permit.

Problem...

On 3/3/2017 at 7:54 AM, JayC said:

Why not just go get a permit and be done with it? 

...Solution

[WindHawk]

Is it my imagination or do I smell a... TROOL?

[JayC]

9 hours ago, Cookies said:

I'm definitely not from new York. Blame att for that. I don't even have an interest in traveling north of I 40. 

The events are mostly taking place on adjoining farms. His back hay field is flat and dry, so they approached him about using it for some vendors. The promoters are going to be responsible for all clean up, and give us all free passes and some goodies, but we're not extremely enthused about participating. 

Drunks and meth heads sound worse than it really is, probably won't be a handful of idiots. I talked with the land owner and his deputy friend again last night, and the deputy agrees that being armed is not legal, but "concealed means concealed".

He also mentioned that if I kept myself to the home and it's curtilage it would be a different situation. After studying the legal definition of curtilage, I'm left almost as confused. 

At least I found a site here with a wealth of knowledge during my search, so it's not a total bust. 

IANAL, but under TN state law, unless it's YOUR home and curtilage, it's still illegal to carry a firearm, concealed or openly.  The chances you'll get arrested are slim and none, but if something goes wrong why risk the extra charge being added on?

Curtilage generally means the house, porch, fenced in yard, and any outbuildings meant for human use.

[Cookies]

It's crazy. I'm more excited about the BBQ be than any of the rest. 

His solution is to lease his guest room to me, with full access to all property and equipment, including personal vehicles. 

 

I'm fairly certain this may work, waiting to hear back from his deputy friend and a local atty that he fishes with. 

[TGO David]

No offense, but every time you post it becomes an increasingly more ridiculous arrangement that would make Rube Goldberg shake his head in disbelief.

I am a fan of Occam's Razor.  If you aren't familiar, it is a problem-solving principle that holds that the solution with the least number of components is the correct one.  If you apply it to the completely absurd scenario you're painting for everyone, the most simplistic solution is to avoid it completely.

Don't think that I am being inhospitable, but you're a complete newcomer and all seven of your posts to date are about a situation that anyone with common sense wouldn't partake in.  I can't decide if we're being trolled, fished or if you're just one of those people who seems relatively intelligent but lacking in the aforementioned common sense.

No matter what it is, I'm closing this thread.  You should probably seek legal counsel before you do any of the crap you've described to us here.  From an attorney, not a deputy or a police officer or the Internet.