School used land question

[Capbyrd]

This was posted on Facebook this weekend in the TFA group and hasn't really had any discussion going.  John Harris just said "read the code..."  which hasn't cleared up anything.  The purpose of this was a discussion and that didn't happen so I'm borrowing the guy's words and bringing it here. 


 

Quote

Here I go stirring up a hornets nest.......
This week end we had a wonderful trap shot match at the Mid South Sport Shooting Association in Shelby County. High schools from all over the county had teams competing. This was a school sanctioned event and all the schools were flying their school flags at their Trap fields.

The other half of the MSSA was still open to the MSSA members for regular range use.

So my question is this:
Since the property was being used for a school event, was it illegal under 39-17-1309 (b) (1) for any one else to be armed?

This points out what a disaster the law is about use of property by a school!

 

[Chucktshoes]

I got nothing. The vagaries inherent in the TN code make this so it could go either way in my eyes. 

[Worriedman]

The author is a good friend of mine and a very intelligent individual who loves to stir the pot, that being said...depending on the reporting and the agency reported to, the use by a school absolutely could make the whole thing an infraction.
 

[chances R]

IMO this was a "firearm event" therefore firearms are legal.  Feel free to take your football or basketball to your next high school game.

[JayC]

15 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

This was posted on Facebook this weekend in the TFA group and hasn't really had any discussion going.  John Harris just said "read the code..."  which hasn't cleared up anything.  The purpose of this was a discussion and that didn't happen so I'm borrowing the guy's words and bringing it here. 

IANAL, but the plain reading of the law clearly makes it illegal to have and use a firearm on the property while a school event is being conducted.

As you said 39-17-1309b1 clearly includes any land in use by the board of education, school, or college:

Quote

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, operated, or while in use by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

Not knowing the exact make up of the event's students, this is the only exception that would seem to apply in anyway shape or form (other than the general law enforcement performing their official duties). 39-17-1309e5:

Quote

Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

The adults providing instructions to the students are probably safe, the students themselves are safe, anybody else carrying or using a loaded firearm is at risk under the current wording of the law.

As currently written there are roving no gun zones that no reasonable person could know about, and it's worded in such a way that not just activities by teenage aged students that cause these zones, official college club activities, and employee birthday lunches at a restaurant could in theory be counted as well.

Now, the chances a DA goes to bat on any of this?  Slim to none, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.

[chances R]

Being private property could be an exception.  Not sure of the status of the property in question.  A TWRA range, for example, would be different than a commercially ran sporting clays facility IMO.

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

Being private property could be an exception.  Not sure of the status of the property in question.  A TWRA range, for example, would be different than a commercially ran sporting clays facility IMO.

 

MSSA is a private range on privately (club) owned land. 

[peejman]

Was it limited to schools only, or were school teams competing in an event open to non-school groups?

[JayC]

9 hours ago, chances R said:

Being private property could be an exception.  Not sure of the status of the property in question.  A TWRA range, for example, would be different than a commercially ran sporting clays facility IMO.

Doesn't matter according to state law as currently written any land in use by a school, or college (public or private) is off limits to regular firearms use.  There are only 4 exceptions that your average person would fall into:

1. You have an HCP and leave the handgun in your vehicle when visiting the event.

2. You have an HCP and are dropping off/picking up a student and stay in the vehicle while in possession of the firearm.

3. You are handling the firearm for the purpose of sanctioned event instruction students on it's use (ie the Hunter Safety exception)

4. You're handling the firearm as part of a school sanctioned ceremony (ie the color guard exception)

5. You're a member of JROTC/shooting team then you're allowed to handle firearms are part of your class/team duties.

While there are lots of other exceptions, most are for law enforcement, special school security guards, and other authorized employees.

Long and short, school sanctioned event, including stopping to eat lunch, or having a birthday party at a local restaurant (with only adult teachers present) are roving felony zones under current state law.

Edited March 1, 2017 by JayC

[JayC]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

Was it limited to schools only, or were school teams competing in an event open to non-school groups?

State law only allows for firearms to be used for instructional and ceremonial purposes but, I'm splitting hairs, I'm sure some 'competitive' shooting could be instructional in nature and might be covered.  

The instructional exception to the law is meant to allow Hunter Safety course (the shooting part) to be allow in school, it's my understanding that is the legislative intent.

Edited March 1, 2017 by JayC

[chances R]

A school bus stop for lunch will not pass muster IMO. One could expand that to a State swim meet, track, football etc at a motel.  Will continue to carry in such instances and take my chances.  You also note "any firearm use"  this would seem to include students.  

Edited March 1, 2017 by chances R

[chances R]

On 2/27/2017 at 6:36 PM, Chucktshoes said:

I got nothing. The vagaries inherent in the TN code make this so it could go either way in my eyes. 

THIS ^^

Edited March 1, 2017 by chances R

[peejman]

13 hours ago, JayC said:

State law only allows for firearms to be used for instructional and ceremonial purposes but, I'm splitting hairs, I'm sure some 'competitive' shooting could be instructional in nature and might be covered.  

The instructional exception to the law is meant to allow Hunter Safety course (the shooting part) to be allow in school, it's my understanding that is the legislative intent.

I don't think you answered my question...   Was this a school only tournament on private property? Or was it a public shooting event in which school teams were competing?  

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, peejman said:

I don't think you answered my question...   Was this a school only tournament on private property? Or was it a public shooting event in which school teams were competing?  

 

The property in question is a private club.  We host the school tournaments.  And that's what this was.  You would not have been able to compete unless you were part of a high school trap team.  

[peejman]

6 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

The property in question is a private club.  We host the school tournaments.  And that's what this was.  You would not have been able to compete unless you were part of a high school trap team.  

Thanks. 

So yes, based on the verbiage in the statute, it sounds like anyone not on a school team in possession of a gun anywhere on the property is eligible to be charged with a felony. 

Which is pretty stupid, but then this is TN law we're talking about so...

I'd say this is a good opportunity for an AG opinion to provide some clarification. If I was in management of the club, that's just what I'd do. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by peejman

[JayC]

On 2/28/2017 at 6:55 PM, chances R said:

A school bus stop for lunch will not pass muster IMO. One could expand that to a State swim meet, track, football etc at a motel.  Will continue to carry in such instances and take my chances.  You also note "any firearm use"  this would seem to include students.  

I'm not suggesting that any sane DA would go to bat on any of those cases, but without a doubt the way the law is currently written, carrying a firearm would be a violation of the law.

I've been complaining to my state Senator for 5 or 6 years about the need to fix this law, because of having a business in close proximity to a large private university.

If we look at previous AG opinions on similar matters involving school activities at public parks, those opinions appear to be wide in scope and clearly would include a sports team spending the night in a hotel, or a restaurant where the school bus stopped for lunch on the way back from a field trip.  

One example used was a park was a no carry zone because students where allowed to eat lunch in the park on nice days, and during those times the park was considered 'in use' by the school. 

The law is very poorly written, just about any change would make it a marked improvement.

Edited March 2, 2017 by JayC

[MP5_Rizzo]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

I don't think you answered my question...   Was this a school only tournament on private property? Or was it a public shooting event in which school teams were competing?  

 

Link to the Entire Code  but e(5) copied and pasted below.

(5)

Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members

of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

I think peejman questions are going in the right direction to the answer as well.

The team I coach is a county wide non-school team but prior to that we were a county wide school superintendent endorsed club.  Clay target competition is not TnSSA sport and operate under a TnSCTP and SSSF rules in addition to the national governing body (NGB) of each discipline i.e. trap, skeet and sporting clays.  Therefore schools do not have teams per se but clubs that may have meetings on school property but are individuals when they are off campus whether to practice or compete and the only affiliation they have with their school are school colors.  Other than a private school, are there any other SCTP coaches here that have witnessed a school clay target team arrive to a practice or competition on their school system bus like a football, basketball soccer team and so on?

Edited March 1, 2017 by MP5_Rizzo

[300winmag]

Why anyone would want to open carry in this state with these type of stupid laws is beyond me.  All it takes is to be open carrying at say a fast food restaurant and a 'concerned' mother with a school group calls the police on the person open carrying. To me unless you are out in the woods, you at risk for problems when other people in public can see your firearm.

Open carry and concealed carry without a permit would be nice, but we've got to fix these type of legal traps so that good people don't get messed up when they are carrying.  

It would be nice if our NRA endorsed republican legislators and republican governor would be willing to make life a little easier for good people by removing these legal traps.

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by 300winmag

[peejman]

55 minutes ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

 

Link to the Entire Code  but e(5) copied and pasted below.

(5)

Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members

of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

I think peejman questions are going in the right direction to the answer as well.

The team I coach is a county wide non-school team but prior to that we were a county wide school superintendent endorsed club.  Clay target competition is not TnSSA sport and operate under a TnSCTP and SSSF rules in addition to the national governing body (NGB) of each discipline i.e. trap, skeet and sporting clays.  Therefore schools do not have teams per se but clubs that may have meetings on school property but are individuals when they are off campus whether to practice or compete and the only affiliation they have with their school are school colors.  Other than a private school, are there any other SCTP coaches here that have witnessed a school clay target team arrive to a practice or competition on their school system bus like a football, basketball soccer team and so on?

That's was part of my point...  Are the teams directly school sponsored, wearing school colors, etc., or just youth club teams that happen to be comprised of students, who may or may not all happen to attend the same school?  

To me, there's a distinct difference.

Regardless, the law (as usual) is way too vague and needs either rewritten or some case law to clarify the specifics. 

[Capbyrd]

40 minutes ago, peejman said:

That's was part of my point...  Are the teams directly school sponsored, wearing school colors, etc., or just youth club teams that happen to be comprised of students, who may or may not all happen to attend the same school?  

To me, there's a distinct difference.

Regardless, the law (as usual) is way too vague and needs either rewritten or some case law to clarify the specifics. 

 

I can't speak to whether they are directly school sponsored or not.  I know that this was an SCTP meet.  I know that the teams were wearing school colors and names and it appeared as though the teams represented the school.  

 

[peejman]

2 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

 

I can't speak to whether they are directly school sponsored or not.  I know that this was an SCTP meet.  I know that the teams were wearing school colors and names and it appeared as though the teams represented the school.  

 

Reading up on SCTP (which sounds like a great program), I get the impression that while all the kids on one team may all go to the same school and wear school colors, thats not a requirement to form a team. Therefore I'd argue that it's not a "school event".  But that's worth exactly what you paid for it.

[JAB]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:38 AM, 300winmag said:

It would be nice if our NRA endorsed republican legislators and republican governor would be willing to make life a little easier for good people by removing these legal traps.

 

Unfortunately it appears that the only way to make this happen is to elect more Democrats so that the Republicans are back in the position of trying to fool...er...prove to gun owners in TN that they are on our side to get us to vote Republican next time.  As it is, it appears that many of them, at least, feel secure in their control and have no need to deign to bother with the likes of us.  I have said, before, that it seemed like more things of real benefit got done with an Illinois Democrat as Governor and and anti-gun Democrat as Speaker than we have seen with a so-called Repubican Governor and majority Republican State Legislature.  The trick is to either not elect enough Democrats - or at least be careful not to elect staunchly anti-gun Democrats - so that we start going backward but to elect enough that the Republicans stop feeling so smugly safe in their jobs.

Edited March 2, 2017 by JAB

[300winmag]

Yeah the real problem we had in the past was the democratic house speaker flat out would not let anything pro gun go to a floor vote in the state house.  He seemed worse at that than the present house speaker and she is pretty lukewarm to gun rights.  From what I understand the democratic house speaker was the reason that it took so long to legalize carry in places that serve alcohol.  I don't get the impression that Haslam is much different than Bredesen when it comes to gun rights.  Neither particularly care.

It is a shame that this state has been issuing permits a lot longer than states like Missouri and Kansas but has not made near the improvements as those states.  I can remember not more than 10 or 15 years ago and you could not conceal a handgun in Missouri and Kansas and there was no sort of licensing system to conceal.  Open carry was sort of legal in both states.  Now they have concealed carry without a license and of course still open carry.  If you have a license you are legal pretty much anywhere when you conceal including schools and colleges.

[TSprint1]

Does anyone here really believe that if we did not currently have concealed carry in Tennessee that we could get it through the current House, Senate and Governor? I do not.   Sad.......

[Garufa]

39 minutes ago, TSprint1 said:

Does anyone here really believe that if we did not currently have concealed carry in Tennessee that we could get it through the current House, Senate and Governor? I do not.   Sad.......

We don't have "concealed carry", we have handgun carry.  Says so right there on the permit.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Garufa