bullets vs listed in manuals

[d***340]

I am a relatively new member, and have recently started reloading again, after a 30 year hiatus (reloaded mostly 45ACP, and .357 on a single stage in my younger years). currently, I am reloading only 9x19 on a 550B.

The frustration I have is that the reload manuals, as well as the powder mfg don't show the bullets I am using (and yes the thought has occurred to me that I should be buying Sierra, Berry's, etc.). I have bought bullets from The Reloaders bench (FMJFN 124gr), as well as from Xtreme and Rocky mountain Reloaders (both TMJRN 124gr). I am trying different powders (Unique, Tightroup and Accurate#2 so far) these all seem to run well through several semiauto pistols. I also bought some FMJRN 115gr from Federal Armament, that I cant figure out at all (really bad Key holing/accuracy).

so, what I am seeking is a way to cross reference the bullets I am using (now and future) to the loading information available. I have downloaded info from all the powder mfg I am using, and own the current Lee and Lyman 50th.

I am sure there is a simple way to accomplish the goal, but my ignorance is keeping me from reaching it. any input is appreciated

D3

 

[frankmako]

buy a chronograph.  they are cheap.  you don't have to buy the high dollar one, a $100.00 dollar chronograph will do all you need.   book load data is a starting point.  a chronograph will help you dial in your loads. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by frankmako

[Omega]

Yes, a chrony is nice get one if you can.  You can also load some ladders, and fire them checking for pressure signs, cycling and lockback on each string.   Stop when you get a good working load, or start to see pressure signs.  Worked for me when I could not afford a chrony, and also works with one.   

[Jamie Jackson]

I agree 100% with the chronograph suggestion.

I have and use a ProChrono and find it invaluable.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/852429/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph

 

Those are 3 of my favorite powders for 9mm and .38 spl. As we cast and PC, we had to learn to adapt OAL and bullet weight and extrapolate from the listed data to come up with safe and accurate loads.

I've also found e-mailing the various powder manufactures has been extremely helpful during our load developments. I've been able to get data that simply isn't, for whatever reason, published, but served as a great starting point. But Chrono use has allowed us to safely develop some great loads.

 

We had some loads in the past that exhibited key-holing. We had to tweak the velocity based on the OAL for our particular slugged barrels. This was with Green Dot powder and 130 gr .38 cal bullets resized for our barrels...worked great, even though we are no longer casting those particular bullets, it's great data to have on hand.

[Dolomite_supafly]

What you do is figure out the length of the bullet listed in the manual. Normally you can find them on the manufacturer's website and if not call them and ask. Measure how much of sticking out of the case and subtract that from the total length of the bullet to determine how much of the bullet is in the case. Now measure YOUR bullet and seat it deep enough to leave the same amount of space for the powder. I know it is a pain but sometimes being safe is not the easiest way.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Dolomite_supafly

[d***340]

Thanks All! lots of good info.

FYI, I did load 12 rounds ea of 5 loads, (starting to max). ran them through my VP9, 3 rounds at each of 5 targets, on a rest, repeated 4 times. Key holing got better toward the upper end, but not good enough to consider loading. I have been looking at Chrony's, and will most likely have one this month. I think it will help a lot, as I am sort of an accuracy freak (loading and shooting).

I also took apart several different commercial rounds I had in 115, and found that most were conical base, which makes sense. I will try DO's comments which should help me get closer.

thanks again all, will let you know how it comes out.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If you need any help I can PM you my number.

[d***340]

thanks!

please do.

does anyone shoot at the Gun Room?

[noylj]

What exactly will a chrony do? Unless you know how velocity for the SAME load compares between your gun and their test gun, velocity really tells you very little. Any change in any component can have an effect on pressure/velocity--including the lot number of powder used.

The two real uses for a chrony are (1) to achieve a specific power factor for action pistol sports and (2) to generate external ballistics for long range shooting.

If you are shooting a XXX gn lead core jacketed bullet, then use the data for the same xxx gn lead core jacketed bullet as in the manual. This is why you start at the start load and work up. If you have a plated bullet, the standard has always been to use lead bullet data. I  prefer to check several manuals and use the lowest starting load.

If you look at the number of bullet manufacturers out there, if you HAD to have specific data for each bullet, reloading would not exist as no test lab can test all bullets.

It used to be that manuals had load for "jacketed" bullets and for "lead" bullets and that was all any one needed.

[d***340]

OK, here is the latest: Someone suggested that I take a commercial round apart and simply replace the mfg bullet with the "issue bullet".

 I loaded the issue bullet with the same powder and OAL., I also obtained a few "Berry's RNHB" and "Rainer JHP" and loaded them as recommended. Here are the results:

pistol: Springfield XDS. I changed from the VP9, to see the affect of standard rifling on the situation, even though the barrel is shorter.

upper left: 10 rounds @ 7yds, Federal Champion 115gr 1.159 OAL (factory load).

Upper right: 10 rounds @ 7yds, Federal Champion case, powder and "issue bullet", 115 gr 1.159 OAL. flyers are me.

center: 10 rounds @ 7yds, reload case, accurate #2, 4.2gr, issue bullet, 115gr, 1.130 OAL Note some key holing but much better.

lower left: 5 rounds @ 7yds, reload case accurate #2, 4.2gr, Berry's RN, 115gr, 1.140 OAL. losing concentration, but no key holing..

lower right: 10 rounds @ 7yds, reload case, accurate #2, 4.2gr, Rainer JHP, 115gr, 1.10 OAL. no excuses here, rounds seem tight and right. variance is me.

So, my next action, is to contact the bullet mfg, to see what they have to say, more to come.

I checked on line to see if I could get "bullet lengths" from several mfg. nothing listed., I will contact them to try to get this information.

I also have a Chrony on the way. I hope to use it to confirm velocities, to see if my loads/pressures are correct (work in progress).

thanks again for all the input!

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I consider a chronograph as important to reloading as the press, dies and powder. I have yet to find a recipe that matches the real world. Most times the velocity is well below the published velocity. It is completely possible to have a gun that cycles but the velocity is so low that the bullets are not stable and keyhole. A chronograph will tell you the actual velocity, not the velocity listed in the manual that is never right.

If you use jacketed load data for cast bullets you will be safe. That is if you have a 115 grain cast bullet you can use 115 jacketed load data without issue. The reason is cast bullets do not generate the same pressures as jacketed is because the cast bullets are softer.

Cast bullets can also be significantly oversized and still be safe. I have shot bullets that measured .313" in a .300/.308" bore without issue. Matter of fact I used the same load data as a correctly sized bullet and had no signs of pressure.

I use the chronograph to work up loads for accuracy because it saves me time and money. I shoot across the chronograph first, before I ever fire at a target. I work up loads based on velocity and standard deviation. I look for the loads with the lowest SD. Then I use those loads to further tweak the accuracy of those loads. A load that has wild SD numbers is rarely accurate while most loads with a low SD numbers tend to shoot better. Using this method I have a pretty good idea of what loads are going to shoot the best even before I step foot on a range.
 

[noylj]

>If you use jacketed load data for cast bullets you will be safe. That is if you have a 115 grain cast bullet you can use 115 jacketed load data without issue. The reason is cast bullets do not generate the same pressures as jacketed is because the cast bullets are softer.

Where did you get that idea? Look at jacketed vs. lead data and you'll see that, yes, the lead data reaches about the same velocity and the same pressure, but almost always with LESS powder. That seems to imply that pressure is going up faster with the lead bullet than jacketed.

Again, if you look at any magazine that compares loads, you'll find that for handguns and rifles at less then 400 yards, there is almost NO correlation between SD and accuracy. You are almost certainly throwing away a lot of very accurate loads by looking ONLY at SD.

If you do an external ballistics calculation for the various velocities, BC, and Sec. Density, you'll find that over a normal spread of velocity, the bullets are all following the same trajectory--for handguns, out to at least 50 yards and for rifles out to at least 200 yards.

[d***340]

thanks again for the input.

I am firing up my new Chrony tomorrow (weather permitting). will see how my loads compare. plan on testing the 115gr loads, as well as several 124gr.

[d***340]

OK so, I continued trying to get the Fedarm 115 RN plated rounds to fly straight, and stumbled across at least one solution.

Through the process, I took the press down, cleaned, lubricated, etc. bought a new seating die with micrometer. changed powder several times (Tightgroup, Unique, Accurate#2, and finally Vihtavouri N320), ran rounds across my new chrony (love this equip),  modified the taper crimp (up and down), and made several trips to the indoor range.

the winner is:

powder: 3.8gr N320

primer:Winchester

seating: 1.142" +/-.001

crimp: minimum.

Pic is @ 5 yards w/ VP-9, 10 shots on a rest, and 5 shots off hand (6:00).

LOVE the Vihtavouri N320!!

very time consuming and frustrating, but found an answer.

thanks again for all your input!!

[ozo]

On 4/10/2017 at 9:19 PM, d***340 said:

and stumbled across at least one solution.

Glad to see you have some resolution......saves pulling your hair out.

Tell Stan and Roger hello.

Are you using the powder measure on the 550B for the Vihtavouri N320 ?

[d***340]

Sorry, just saw the question. Yes, using the powder measure on the 550B.

Since this is stick powder, I slowed down the cycle, and check every 10 rounds. found no deviation in gr weight (use balance and digital), and chrony was under 25fps difference. I really like this powder, and hope to load in some in other calibers in the future.

[Sunfish]

You will need a note book of your own and place the bullets across one side and the powder the other. The COL is helpful in the bullet tabs. Case volume is also a variable with straightwall cases.