Teachers denied 2nd amendment in TN

[serbu50]

I have a friend who is an elementary school teacher. Her school contract says no guns at all period. No guns in cars or trunks. So she basically goes unarmed to and from work. What if she goes shopping after school? What if she breaks down to or from school. How is this even possible ? I never thought about it like that. So basically she's only armed at home Monday-Friday... interesting scenario. 

[Oh Shoot]

15 minutes ago, serbu50 said:

I have a friend who is an elementary school teacher. Her school contract says no guns at all period. No guns in cars or trunks. So she basically goes unarmed to and from work. What if she goes shopping after school? What if she breaks down to or from school. How is this even possible ? I never thought about it like that. So basically she's only armed at home Monday-Friday... interesting scenario. 

Well, with a permit she can legally keep a firearm in her vehicle on school property under TN law. And if her employer takes action against her for doing that, she has recourse to sue for damages, also specified in TN law.

How that squares against contract law I don't know, no test case yet. It is my understanding however, that a contract may not validly specify anything that is illegal under federal or the individual state law.

But you can so far forget 2A as a defense, since SCOTUS has only incorporated to the states the fact that you may own common firearms in the home.

- OS

Edited January 31, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[Ronald_55]

I used to work around schools a bunch. Guns on public school grounds has been frowned upon if not all out illegal for a long time. I think it was done to allow stiffer punishment for those committing crimes on the property. It does though leave a gaping hole in the option for armed individuals to intervene in a Live Shooter scenario on the property. It could be debated either way as to which is better. Careless legal gun owners can be an issue. Not everyone that passes the permit class is fit to carry. I have seen that myself. On the other hand, no one being armed leaves an opening for a shooter to proceed without fear of retaliation. 

 

For her case, the issue of Tennessee being a "right to work" state could come into play. My employer does not have to have a stated reason to let me go. Makes it precarious to push then even if I have a legal right. And going to court on it does not pay a terminated employees bills right now. I am sure her contract has an out clause for the school system.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ronald_55

[serbu50]

Basically it's comes down to school policy. Seems they are under a liability either way. But it sucks. I know what i would do but that's not what she would do.... 

[300winmag]

The school carry law in this state is a joke.  We have to go through a training course, range qualification, and wait a month for a permit and cannot carry outside our vehicles on school property.  The permit should just be called a 'car gun permit' because that literally is what it is on school property.  People in Alabama can buy pistol licenses on the spot in some counties and legally carry at their local school or college.  No training no hassle, just pay a small fee and you are legal to carry down there pretty much everywhere.

Edited January 31, 2017 by 300winmag

[serbu50]

I googled license for teacher to carry on property. I could find no such special permit... care to share more info? Thanks 

[monkeylizard]

There's not one. 300winmag was simply opining that with a permit we can have one on school property as long as it remains in the car, but it's a veritable free-for-all for our neighbors to the south.

Oh Shoot is correct. It wouldn't violate any laws for her to keep one in her car at work, but it might violate an employment rule. Kind of like how it's not against the law to tell your boss you think he sucks, but it's a great way to get fired. However, as OS also pointed out, employers can no longer take action without opening themselves up to a lawsuit. Real-world circumstances though typically make most people play by their employer's rules, regardless of what the law does or doesn't say.

[300winmag]

About the only way a teacher can legally carry at a public K-12 school in this state is by being a reserve police officer.  I doubt many public schools use contract guard companies or have in house armed guards that are not police.  I believe there was one public school district granted an exception by legislature last year for the district to allow by policy staff with permits to carry.  Can't remember where but it is a rural school district.

Private K-12 schools in TN can allow carry by people with handgun carry permits.  Of course they can also have their own in house armed guards or hire contract.  It is legal in TN for licensed armed guards to carry at public and private schools while they are working.

Edited January 31, 2017 by 300winmag

[RED333]

OS is right on this, I do not know about the contract thing ether.

[Worriedman]

5 hours ago, Ronald_55 said:

For her case, the issue of Tennessee being a "right to work" state could come into play. My employer does not have to have a stated reason to let me go. Makes it precarious to push then even if I have a legal right. And going to court on it does not pay a terminated employees bills right now. I am sure her contract has an out clause for the school system.

Tennessee is an "At Will Employment" State. that is where your employer get the ability to let you go for any or no reason.

[Ronald_55]

47 minutes ago, Worriedman said:

Tennessee is an "At Will Employment" State. that is where your employer get the ability to let you go for any or no reason.

Yeah, you are so right. I blame my mistake on lack of sleep and the day I was having at work. Thanks for the correction.

[serbu50]

So after the replies, nothing changes. Unless the school changes her policy, she is violated of her 2A because of a policy. 

[DaveTN]

3 hours ago, serbu50 said:

So after the replies, nothing changes. Unless the school changes her policy, she is violated of her 2A because of a policy. 

None of us in Tennessee have 2nd amendment rights to carry recognized by the state.  If we did we wouldn’t need a permit and everyone could carry. So yes, she either needs to abide by the policy or suffer the consequences.

[monkeylizard]

4 hours ago, serbu50 said:

So after the replies, nothing changes. Unless the school changes her policy, she is violated of her 2A because of a policy. 

Technically, no. As Oh Shoot pointed out, termination or any other negative employment action taken against her because of having a lawfully possessed firearm in her own vehicle would allow her to sue for damages.

In the real-world, the employer can simply take that exact same negative employment action up to and including termination, without giving a reason. An exception might be in a teacher's union contract where that can't happen, in which case the school system might have to provide a reason. It would depend on the terms of the employment contract. Even that wouldn't stop them from citing some other reason. It might be quite difficult to prove that the firearm was the reason for the negative employment action, but if it could be proven, then she can sue for damages. Of course all of that requires money, so the end result is that in most cases, I suspect that the employee is just fired and it never goes anywhere after that.

[JAB]

On 2/1/2017 at 7:18 AM, DaveTN said:

None of us in Tennessee have 2nd amendment rights to carry recognized by the state.  If we did we wouldn’t need a permit and everyone could carry. So yes, she either needs to abide by the policy or suffer the consequences.

Maybe this would be more accurately stated as, "She either needs to abide by the policy or risk suffering the consequences."  I am not saying that she should violate the policy just that if she kept a firearm secured and very well hidden inside her vehicle and were never caught then there wouldn't really be any suffering of consequences.  There would be the risk, however.

[300winmag]

At least your friend cannot get a weapons charge if she has a permit and leaves the gun in the car at the school.  It could be worse like it was a few years ago when you couldn't do that without risking problems.  What is legal and what is policy are two different things.

[DaveTN]

Assuming your friend is in Marshall County; has she asked? This is a link to the Marshall County School System Employee Handbook. It has no language about weapons, simply a quote of part of the TCA under the title WEAPONS.

39-17-1309 is much longer that what is shown and goes into detail about employees; she should read it.

http://mcs.marshall.k12tn.net/web_docs/HR_docs/2016_2017 MCBOE Employee Handbook July 22 2016.pdf

 

[JayC]

IANAL, but my understanding is that provisions of a contract which violate state law are not valid.  State law says that keeping a firearm in your vehicle in the parking lot is legal and you can not be fired for doing so.  It would seems to me that a contract provision which states otherwise would be null and void.  And since she's part of a union she probably can't be fired without cause.

But it's this non-sense that happens because TFA pushed these silly parking lot laws and tried to make a protected class of employee...  it would have taken less political capital to allow HCP holders to carry at school, than to pass this. 

[monkeylizard]

No, state law does not say you can't be fired for doing so. It says that the fired employee may seek damages against the employer. The employer can fire the employee, but needs to be prepared to defend itself or pay up, or more likely, give any other reason or no reason at all to fire the employee. That's when contracts come into play because some do require cause for termination. The employer just has to gin up some other cause and they're home free unless the terminated employee can prove otherwise. That's usually an expensive task and probably why we have no case law that any of us know about.

Edited February 3, 2017 by monkeylizard

[300winmag]

Yes it would have been much smarter to spend the time giving handgun carry permits an exemption on school property just like the exemption that licensed armed guards have rather than messing with these employer related parking lot laws.  From my understanding, folks in TN who used to have those sheriff cards could carry at schools, so why not carry that over to the state permit system.

[Worriedman]

On 2/3/2017 at 8:11 AM, 300winmag said:

Yes it would have been much smarter to spend the time giving handgun carry permits an exemption on school property just like the exemption that licensed armed guards have rather than messing with these employer related parking lot laws.  From my understanding, folks in TN who used to have those sheriff cards could carry at schools, so why not carry that over to the state permit system.

All that would take is to get the Sheriff's Association, the Chiefs of Police and the Chamber to agree I think.