Mil-spec triggers...don't suck?

[MrJones79]

Came across this on Facebook and thought I'd pass it along. It's a good point of view on training vs. the illusion that expensive or lighter triggers are a necessity.

https://sofrep.com/72356/milspec-triggers-suck/

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[Garufa]

Millions of soldiers all over the world have gone to war with "mil-spec" triggers for a couple of centuries and did just fine.

Unless you're target shooting with a military rifle, what does it matter?

I rarely screw with triggers... just learn how they break.

[Raoul]

19 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Millions of soldiers all over the world have gone to war with "mil-spec" triggers for a couple of centuries and did just fine.

Unless you're target shooting with a military rifle, what does it matter?

I rarely screw with triggers... just learn how they break.

+1. Except for the Timney I dropped into my Remy 700 .06 BDL

[MrJones79]

I agree. Learning how to shoot with any trigger you use is a great skill to have. I have no problem if you want to change a trigger out, but it's definitely not necessary unless you're going for super precision, match shooting etc.


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[Omega]

I've posted here about this same thing before.  If I'm doing a build, I may get a polished trigger, such as PSA's, but I haven't messed with any of my handgun or other rifle triggers.  Now, my Kimber's trigger is much nicer than my Glock, but it hasn't kept me from using the Glock more.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Omega
Speeling

[tacops]

I seriously doubt that anyone while receiving fire thought, gee my trigger isn't as slick as it could be.  I run mil-spec in all my ARs some with PSA polished simply because they were on sale.  I may polish them if they feel too rough to suit me.  I can see having upgrade triggers for precision competition shooting or long range precision when the chips are down.  I don't fault those that want them, I just don't feel the need.  I can buy a lot of ammo for the price of one.

[nightrunner]

Mil spec triggers are fine for their intended purpose. Extreme durability. They work fine for 90%of what the rifle is used for.

But when you want to shoot faster, with better precision or more tactile feel I the trigger you change it out.

A Honda will get you from A to B. But depending on your needs, a Ford Raptor, Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, or Kawasaki Ninja is going to be the better option if it's available.

[tacops]

29 minutes ago, nightrunner said:

Mil spec triggers are fine for their intended purpose. Extreme durability. They work fine for 90%of what the rifle is used for.

But when you want to shoot faster, with better precision or more tactile feel I the trigger you change it out.

A Honda will get you from A to B. But depending on your needs, a Ford Raptor, Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, or Kawasaki Ninja is going to be the better option if it's available.

Agreed,  that is why I stipulate that for extreme precision, especially long range, I can see the need/desire.  I can also see where those competing in 3 gun for example may wish to upgrade for the speed factor.  I don't run three gun, at least not organized matches.  I just differ with the "your rifle sucks because you don't have a Super Duper Taterdoodle trigger" crowd.

[Sam1]

mil-spec means nothing.  a good quality trigger makes a world of difference.  It's not just about pull weight, it's about travel and break as well.

If you train enough with a musket, you will become proficient at it.  Doesn't mean I want to be a highly trained musketeer instead of a novice rifleman with access to better technology.

[Sam1]

lol I just watched part of the video... He starts into "stock triggers are fine"  ... "However, I highly modified this PTR to fit my shooting needs, and all of those modifications helped out the trigger pull tremendously" 

Good grief 

 

[Omega]

3 minutes ago, Sam1 said:

mil-spec means nothing.  a good quality trigger makes a world of difference.  It's not just about pull weight, it's about travel and break as well.

If you train enough with a musket, you will become proficient at it.  Doesn't mean I want to be a highly trained musketeer instead of a novice rifleman with access to better technology.

I would rather be well trained, I don't compete so don't need anything super duper.  I can put a magazine into an 8" plate through a VTAC shooting barrier with any of my carry guns, and can close that from a bench.  With my rifles I can do the same through the barrier and can put a round where I want in a deer.  Nice triggers are great, no doubt, I just don't need one.  As with your analogy, I would take the Honda and have enough money to get cross country, if I take the Ferrari, it would stay in the garage while I save up enough to pay for the gas.

[musicman]

I don't plan on going to battle, ever.  Nor joining the military.  A milspec trigger means nothing to me.  I am a hobbyist/enthusiast.  My only real "duty" tool would be my Shield, I guess.  Everything else is just for fun. I like nice, crisp triggers and have them in all my AR variants.  

This is about like saying all anyone really needs in a handgun is a HiPoint.  Sure.  It holds bullets and goes boom.  Most of us generally opt for more refinement and features, though.

[Sam1]

Think someone else used the car analogy.  guns are just like any other upgradable item on the market.  Manufacturers look at production costs, if it cost the same to put a competition quality trigger pack in an AR as it did to put a "milspec" trigger, every single one of them would do it.  In the case of this guy's video, you could counter his claims about "milspec" triggers not needing to be upgraded, by the fact that he had rifles with optics on them instead of iron sights.

After all, iron sights have been tried and tested and and proven to be effective on the battlefield and never need to be upgraded, right?  People just need more training on iron sights instead of using optics. Just as they ONLY need training with stock triggers instead of upgraded ones.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sam1

[Omega]

27 minutes ago, Sam1 said:

Think someone else used the car analogy.  guns are just like any other upgradable item on the market.  Manufacturers look at production costs, if it cost the same to put a competition quality trigger pack in an AR as it did to put a "milspec" trigger, every single one of them would do it.  In the case of this guy's video, you could counter his claims about "milspec" triggers not needing to be upgraded, by the fact that he had rifles with optics on them instead of iron sights.

After all, iron sights have been tried and tested and and proven to be effective on the battlefield and never need to be upgraded, right?  People just need more training on iron sights instead of using optics. Just as they ONLY need training with stock triggers instead of upgraded ones.

Optics and upgraded triggers are two things I believe can be made less expensively, with all the automation and CNC, but it would not be conducive to sellers of those items.  But you are right in a sense, optics are better than irons.  I just dont believe in buying optics that are worth more than my rifle.  I still make sure I can hit with my irons, but all my rifles do have optics.

[DaveTN]

Interesting conversation. I have never bought an aftermarket trigger for anything; never saw the need to. I have kicked around the idea of putting an Apex on one of my M&P’s; just because everyone raves about them. But then I think; they are carry guns not competition guns. I’ve done trigger jobs on revolvers that I shot in competition. It didn’t help my scores any, but people that tried them were impressed with how smooth they were.

I just bought a new M&P CORE that was supposed to be Performance Center gun. I question that it ever saw the inside of the Performance Center. It went back to S&W without even being fired. I’m still waiting to hear from them on it.

My S&W and DPMS AR’s triggers seem fine. My 700 VLS has an X Mark Pro that breaks like glass; I see no reason to change it. I thought about it when Remington had the trigger recall, but just sent it in and let them do their thing. It works fine and I don’t need it to be any lighter.

My weakness is optics because I know they do make a difference to me. I own Leupold, Nikon and Vortex scopes. I also believe you get what you pay for in scopes.

I just bought my first red dot for a handgun. I have Eotechs on rifles, but have never used an optic on a handgun. I wanted a Leupold DelatPoint Pro, but I can't get a mount for the M&P, so I ordered a Vortex Venom. I'm curious to see how that works out.

[Sam1]

Get the apex, you won't regret it.  The CORE had one and it worked so well I put one on the M&Pc.  Picked up an M&P 2.0 a few days ago and one will be going on it as soon as they are out as well. (the flat faced triggers, think the duty/carry trigger kits are already out)

[Dolomite_supafly]

I like my tuned milspec trigger over any aftermarket trigger. It has taken me a long time but I can turn any milspec trigger into a three pound, or lighter, trigger. But not only that, I remove almost all of the pretravel and over travel. It feels like the trigger of a good bolt action. 

 

[btq96r]

A while back, I saw a can't pass up (to me) deal, and from that, I have an Geissele SD3G in my SBR.  I don't shoot 3-gun or any other competition, don't shoot it for distance past 100yds, but I love having that trigger.  In my mind, it's just better for what I want out of the gun. 

I'm not chiding anyone who doesn't have something other than the standard trigger, I know it works just fine, and I'm quite sure there are plenty of people who could out shoot me on my best day with my SD3G while using only a mil-spec trigger for themselves.  But that SD3G isn't coming out of my SBR unless I need some quick cash to pay a bill.  I think that highly of it.

[runco]

I would like to add, its another car comparison:  Keep it OEM!

In my teens and well into my late 20s, every car I owned, every truck, 4-Runner, motorcycle, four wheeler etc.  I modified it somehow anywhere from tinted windows, after market wheels, bigger tires, high performance tires, engine mods, engine swaps, lift kits, lowering kits, lower gears, spools, interiors, lights, spoilers, pipes, chips, cams, heads, carbs, headers, emissions removal, and the list can go on and on.  As I got older and wiser, what I learned from all of those performance enhancers, it did make me feel good, it did separate me from others and it did allow me to brag and showoff, but in reality it sucked tons of unnecessary cash out of me, it eroded the re-sale value even though I thought it increased the value, and by far the biggest unplanned consequence was that it eroded the reliability of my machine.  Reliability means more to me than going from 0-60 in a few seconds.  Since age 30 which was 20 years ago, I have not modified any vehicle I own, and though I might have missed tons of fun, milli second performances and bragging rights with others, I rest easy knowing that my machines are highly reliability and I have few extra clams in my account (or no CC bills).  I have now carried that mindset over to my guns as well.  Yes, I will add a scope, sling, and on occasion maybe a rubber grip sleeve for my glocks, but that is about it.  I will not tinker with the mechanisms, modify anything, or gadget up any thing.  I just like to keep things OEM!  Does it really retard my performance capability, the world will never know.

Finally, if you are flushed with cash or have good credit, young in mind and heart, adventurous, and have not yet reached that level of thought of serious full of life wisdom, and where reliability is not even an issue or how can it be an issue, spend and modify away, have fun and live a little, show off what you have, as for me, I have already learned that lesson while riding off in to the sunset to be that old wise fart that all young people dislike! 

[MrJones79]

I don't plan on going to battle, ever.  Nor joining the military.  A milspec trigger means nothing to me.  I am a hobbyist/enthusiast.  My only real "duty" tool would be my Shield, I guess.  Everything else is just for fun. I like nice, crisp triggers and have them in all my AR variants.  

This is about like saying all anyone really needs in a handgun is a HiPoint.  Sure.  It holds bullets and goes boom.  Most of us generally opt for more refinement and features, though.

I'm all good with anyone that wants to upgrade a trigger kit in an AR or any other gun. I wouldn't mind dropping a Geissele SSA in my ARs. My point was more to address the fact that a lot of YouTubers and the like have brainwashed people into thinking mil-spec is some kind of flawed trigger - they're not. They serve their purpose just fine and get the job done. In defensive scenarios, you're not going to be performing crisp trigger resets; you're going to be pissing your pants and mashing the sh*t out of the trigger. For recreational shooting if you got the dough and like the product, by all means, put whatever you like in your guns.

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[DWARREN123]

A good trigger is not necessary lighter but has less or no take up and over travel. It feels the same every time.

[A.J. Holst]

My recommendation is shoot milspec and and upgrade so you can truly compare.

If it's that much better, based on how you're going to use your rifle, plunk down the coin.

I've been lucky with some of my handgun acquisitions and can compare the action of the SP101...a DIY project vs. a Gemini Custom and a well broken in 75B Omega vs. a CZC SDP. 

The CZs do have different trigger systems, but the SDP (as well as the GC SP101) is noticeably better.

[Wingshooter]

14 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

I like my tuned milspec trigger over any aftermarket trigger. It has taken me a long time but I can turn any milspec trigger into a three pound, or lighter, trigger. But not only that, I remove almost all of the pretravel and over travel. It feels like the trigger of a good bolt action. 

 

That's the same for me also. Based on some of your postings here over the years, I can get a great trigger with a little polishing, an extended adjustable grip screw and light springs. I know your trigger work would put mine to shame, but it works great!

[JohnC]

I'm a trigger snob, so I'm biased.

Nearly every rifle I own has an aftermarket trigger such as Geissele, ALG Defense, Tac-Con 3MR, etc. 

The worst mil-spec trigger I ever felt was in my Ruger SR556.

The worst AK47 trigger I ever used was the factory trigger in my M92 PAP. 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by JohnC

[mikegideon]

I'm one of those snobs. I have 5 Geissele triggers. I won't say that I need them on my carbines, but I shoot better with them. 3 of my AR's have milspec triggers, and they suck. I DO believe the high speed mtch triggers are needed on the precision rifles. It's much easier to hold a gun under 1/2 MOA when you don't have to drag an 8 pound trigger over a pile of gravel

Edited January 18, 2017 by mikegideon