Permit for former LEO

[chances R]

The recent law change that includes military members age 18-20 got me thinking.  Too cold to do much of anything else.  I think most will agree there is minimal training for firearms in the military unless you are in a combat role MOS.  Not a part of every members daily routine.  Plus generally under supervision.  Not including combat troops here for discussion.  This does include National Guard and Reserve as the State includes them in this new law per my phone conversation with them yesterday.  Sooooo, past LEO who have been on the job with no disciplinary issues, but have left the job; why can't they get a HCP in the same way as military?  These individuals have generally had more training, carried a weapon routinely, and have knowledge of the law.  At face value, IMO, much more ready to carry routinely than military personnel.  Same thing for armed security guard? Competitive shooters? Where do you draw the line?  The box has already been opened.  I would be much more favorable for all if there was an on-line course that focused on the gun laws in TN.

[Omega]

LEO have LEOSA, not sure if it covers non retired LEOs, but they do have something.  As to military firearms training, they do get it, just not on handguns, at least not as much, but they do get all the safety training that goes for every firearm.  They also get training with M203s, the LAW (well in my time), and hand grenades in Basic.  And for over 15 years now we have been in combat so the number of combat vets out there has increased dramatically, and the at-home training has been reflecting that. So I would argue that the military gets more training than most who seek a CCW Permit.

[Pain103]

 If you have 10 years of qualified law enforcement under the terms of LEOSA, doesn't mandate retired you should qualify under that law to carry once you qualify. But if you haven't been TN POST certified or completed the academy in the past five years you won't be exempt from the class/range for the HCP.

[Dolomite_supafly]

 

I can guarantee the even the most green private has had more time on a trigger, as well as firearm safety beaten into them, than a typical seasoned LE officer.

Most LE only pull the trigger on their guns when they are required to and that is normally once a year to keep their POST certifications. Every member of the Army is required to qualify with their weapons at least every six months. And in between those qualifications most spend even more time on the range increasing their skill set. And as anyone who has been in the military can attest safety is beaten into your head, then beaten again and then to make sure you heard it before they say it again. So if I were to pick who could get a HCP without the mandatory training it would be a member of our military over LE.

Something else, this covers those who are 18-20 which means worst case scenario they are two years since their last training but probably a lot less. For LE who left the job that could be a lot longer and as time goes on people tend to forget things. I have friends who are deep into their 60's who were LE in their 20's. There is no way in hell those friends have the same knowledge or skills as someone who has been out of the military for two years or less.

And finally, considering most enlistments are more than two years that means the <20 year old was forced out. And if they have an honorable discharge it means they were likely separated for injuries which right now means it was likely the result of being in combat. And again, if I had to pick someone who might have to protect my family or I it would be a recently separated combat veteran over a 50 year old who was in LE 25 years earlier.

 

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

Where do you draw the line? 

The law has drawn the line. Unless they have changed it you get a pass on the class if you were a certified LEO within the last five years.

The problem is there is no way to mandate the LEO training; it depends on where and how the LEO was trained and the follow-up training. I have two honorable discharges and was a LEO many years ago. I’m over 50 and would put my LEO training up against most any departments, and certainly over the general firearms training in the military.

There are many firearms instructors that have been neither Military nor LEO. I’m sure they are like any other job; good ones and bad ones. Like a Police Department your level of training will be as good as the instruction you get; all is not equal.

Giving the military a pass is a feel good political move by the state; and there is nothing wrong with that. If they were serious about training the requirements for an HCP would be much more stringent than they are. The HCP training I went through certainly was nothing to brag about; but I got my permit and the state and the instructor got their money. Everyone was happy.

I feel for the people that have been victims of violence, or just want to defend themselves the same way we do; but don’t have the money to play the game.

[Danger Rane]

16 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

 

I can guarantee the even the most green private has had more time on a trigger, as well as firearm safety beaten into them, than a typical seasoned LE officer.

Most LE only pull the trigger on their guns when they are required to and that is normally once a year to keep their POST certifications. Every member of the Army is required to qualify with their weapons at least every six months. And in between those qualifications most spend even more time on the range increasing their skill set. And as anyone who has been in the military can attest safety is beaten into your head, then beaten again and then to make sure you heard it before they say it again. So if I were to pick who could get a HCP without the mandatory training it would be a member of our military over LE.

Something else, this covers those who are 18-20 which means worst case scenario they are two years since their last training but probably a lot less. For LE who left the job that could be a lot longer and as time goes on people tend to forget things. I have friends who are deep into their 60's who were LE in their 20's. There is no way in hell those friends have the same knowledge or skills as someone who has been out of the military for two years or less.

And finally, considering most enlistments are more than two years that means the <20 year old was forced out. And if they have an honorable discharge it means they were likely separated for injuries which right now means it was likely the result of being in combat. And again, if I had to pick someone who might have to protect my family or I it would be a recently separated combat veteran over a 50 year old who was in LE 25 years earlier.

 

This is probably the only topic I will ever say this to you on Dolomite, but I respectfully disagree. (with the caveat that the information you provided was probably accurate up until about 5-6 years ago)

Not including the few units at the top of the food chain, the majority of our troops currently deployed to hostile theatres, to include infantry troops, are not even allowed to carry loaded firearms when not specifically performing a mission and under close supervision of leadership. It's a sad state but true. This is not necessarily a theatre policy, more often the decision of the Commanders at some level not trusting their own NCOs and troops not to accidentally shoot each other in the chow hall line.

Combine that with the knowledge that our forces have been in advise and assist (not necessarily accompany) mode for the last couple years and it drastically cuts down the possibility of many 18-20 year old service members having much, if any, two-way trigger time. I'm not talking military as a whole, but the nugs specifically.

I'm former Army, never been a LEO. Just came back from downrange in Oct.(contractor in an advisory role) and I'll say that in most cases I would rather a former LEO in good standing be exempt from the HCP process than many of the current 18-20 year old joe snuffys.

The aspect that figures more into the HCP conversation for me is maturity. As far as I know all LEO start out at a minimum age of 21. While this certainly does not garuntee maturity, or grace under fire, it is apparently the universally excepted age for individuals to be deemed responsible enough to experience the wonders of handguns and hangovers. Being an 18 year old GI that might have been in a couple firefights certainly does not guarantee maturity or experience in CONUS conflict resolution. In some instances those experiences can lead to individuals using what they know works (violence) to solve the problem, when it might have been a problem they coulda/shoulda walked away from had they been mature enough to process it.

Would I put a 19 year old private with a year long deployment pulling tower guard under his belt outside my house to face an immanent threat...sure if I knew there was no chance of friendlies walking into his sector of fire. Would I want a former officer that has successfully passed months of LEO training and certification to be able to skip the 8 hour class required of us civilians to carry a handgun....absolutely.

Add in the fact that opening up the HCP to this relatively small demographic is already negatively effecting our carry reciprocity with other states and I think it's a no brainer that TN should have abstained from what appears to be nothing more than feel good policy making.