Safe Room Ideas?

[seez52]

12 hours ago, Wingshooter said:

Since we'll be doing a new construction, the thought has crossed my mind about burying a shipping container perpendicular to a basement wall and making it accessable from the basement and a hatch to the outside as well. Would serve as a root cellar/storm shelter/somewhat-secret storage room that is not under the house but is under the ground. If it was easily accessable from the basement, it would be more inviting to actually use during a weather event.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the details, but it has crossed my mind.

When we built I considered adding some large concrete sewer pipe perpendicular to the basement, 4 ft. or so in diameter or possible one of the oval styles sit on its side. Was  going to extend it out to the edge of the hill and make a door of some sort. Was also going to set it up for an indoor shooting tube of sorts with a movable target mechanism. But didn't do it. I figured the pipe itself could be installed water tight, but didn't really feel confident the connection inside the basement would be. We were using block. If you used poured walls you could probably make it work.  Still, probably not a cheap addition and most builders are not going to want to fool with it.

[runco]

8 hours ago, seez52 said:

 Was also going to set it up for an indoor shooting tube of sorts with a movable target mechanism.

I have had this idea too.  Maybe a 18" tile/culvert, maybe in a total length of 100'. 

[Ronald_55]

One Idea a friend was looking into was the large plastic tanks like they use for gas stations under ground. I think they can be 8 ft in diameter and are made to be buried. Plus is definetly water proof.  Lay in some boards for a flat floor.

 

Look here for ideas. http://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com They have lots of pics of their round bunkers. The use go overboard on the luxury features

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ronald_55

[Danger Rane]

For new construction with a basement I would work with the builder to either have them partition off a section with rebar reinforced cinder blocks after the concrete was poured, or have them add on a separate room to the basement that is made/tied in at the same time. Those will minimize some of the leak or structural issues involved with adding on later. Depending on ones needs you don't necessarily need a big square room. I have seen a few that were 4-5ft wide but ran the entire length of the home. The narrow size also made it much easier/cheaper to use a steel roof for the safe room.

One option for secure attachment of a steel plate roof is to weld a small "foot" onto the bottom ends of the rebar that go in the bottom row of cinder blocks. As you build up your rows fill the cinder block pockets with concrete as you go. You want to have the rebar a minimum of 6" taller than you want your roof. This will allow you to set your 3/8" or 1/2" steel plate on top to mark where to drill your pass through holes. once your holes are cut, drop the plate in place and weld the plate to the rebar, cutting of the excess end pieces. Then seam weld your plates together and coat with a subterranean protectant (like builders us on the outside of your cinderblock before backfilling. The "feet" at the bottom of the rebar prevent prying your roof off with a spreader breaching tool (think mini jaws of life) that would normally break the rebar free from the concrete. With the foot added the are pulling against the entire mass of the wall.

This also makes an excellent storm shelter, exceeding the FEMA specs that I've seen. 

[Wingshooter]

18 hours ago, Sam1 said:

I would rethink that carefully, have read around on the interwebs that shipping containers should never be used as underground shelters because the roofs aren't designed to support the weight.

That's why I put the comment out there... to get the yay/nay reactions  Thanks for the advice. I haven't fully explored the idea yet, so that gives me something to research.

[Wingshooter]

18 hours ago, Raoul said:

I've about decided that if it truly hits the fan, I'm just gonna go down swingin. Hiding just doesn't sound appetizing and I'm old anyway.

I agree if it's teotwawki or similar. I like hiding from the twisters though . 

[seez52]

We did however create two separate safe rooms in the house. One is on the main level and is hidden behind movable bookshelves. So far no visitor has been able to find it. The other is in the basement and is mainly a storm shelter and for ammo storage. It's under the front porch which makes the room about 7x33'. It has rebar reinforced walls all the way around (poured cores) and a reinforced concrete ceiling that's about 8" thick plus a brick paver on top. There is only about 18" above ground.  

[bud]

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Edited April 26, 2017 by bud

[seez52]

1 hour ago, bud said:

Can you give me some info on the hardware for the moveable bookshelves? I know there's info on Google, but would love to hear pluses and minuses of the way you did yours to avoid reinventing the wheel like is my tendency.

This one is fairly simple and it opens into the safe room. I had my carpenter build a self contained book shelf unit that fit the opening taking into consideration that the finished trim will cover the crack all the way around. The shelf unit will need to be hinged from the back so that it opens properly. To do this I used a pretty good sized piece of angle iron, 3" and about 5' long I think, which is lag bolted to the  framing of the opening. I welded three heavy duty hinges to the angle iron then a smaller piece of angle (1") to the other side of the hinges. This smaller piece attaches to the back edge of shelf unit; it runs full length of the shelf unit. I also added a diagonal steel cable across the back with a turnbuckle so I could adjust the the height of the non hinged side. I figured we would have books and so forth on the shelves and didn't think, over time, it would hold up to being loaded. It actually swings really well.

I mounted a deadbolt lock in the top of the shelf unit and made an adjustable strike out of a short piece of angle iron. I can pull the shelf tightly closed, set the lock and it looks normal. If someone knew it was there it would be easy to kick in. Hopefully it's camouflaged enough that no one will find it. It also has it's own alarm contact, anytime the door opens I get a phone call whether the house alarm is activated or not.

One issue that came up was that the rough framed opening was not completely plumb from one side to the other. It was sort of twisted. We had to fix that the best we could before starting. Make sure the framing crew is real particular about it and they use good straight wood for that part of your build. I still have a little more reveal on one side than the other but it's not noticeable unless you know what you're looking for. I also have dark finished wood trim rather than white painted trim so any cracks blend in well.  

[peejman]

8 minutes ago, seez52 said:

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One issue that came up was that the rough framed opening was not completely plumb from one side to the other. It was sort of twisted. We had to fix that the best we could before starting. Make sure the framing crew is real particular about it and they use good straight wood for that part of your build. 

Pet peeve #127... crooked lumber. Use good straight wood for the whole build, especially anywhere anyone will see it. My house is full of wavy walls and door frames that aren't quite square. Bugs the crap outa me. 

Anyway... cool idea on the hidden bookshelf. My dad has a similar hidey hole book shelf in his house, but it's not walk-in sized. 

[McGarrett]

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/atlas-missile-silo-home

[bud]

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Edited April 26, 2017 by bud

[Glenn]

13 hours ago, seez52 said:

We did however create two separate safe rooms in the house. One is on the main level and is hidden behind movable bookshelves. So far no visitor has been able to find it. The other is in the basement and is mainly a storm shelter and for ammo storage. It's under the front porch which makes the room about 7x33'. It has rebar reinforced walls all the way around (poured cores) and a reinforced concrete ceiling that's about 8" thick plus a brick paver on top. There is only about 18" above ground.  

do you have any problem with condensation under the porch? We have almost the exact same thing and in cold weather it rains from condensation on the ceiling.

[peejman]

2 hours ago, Glenn said:

do you have any problem with condensation under the porch? We have almost the exact same thing and in cold weather it rains from condensation on the ceiling.

What's between the ceiling of your room and the bottom of your porch? Does the ceiling slope any direction?  

Does the room stay closed most of the time?

Is the room a noticeably different temperature than the rest of the basement? Does the ceiling feel colder than the other walls?

Do you run a dehumidifier?

Edited December 31, 2016 by peejman

[Hershmeister]

What's between the ceiling of your room and the bottom of your porch? Does the ceiling slope any direction?  
Does the room stay closed most of the time?
Is the room a noticeably different temperature than the rest of the basement? Does the ceiling feel colder than the other walls?
Do you run a dehumidifier?

Condensation should only happen due to a major temperature difference between the air in the space and the concrete ceiling.


An underporch area is a common space to use - even for just basic storage.



If its not climate controlled i wouldnt bother storing anything in it that might have issues with rust or temp swings

On the other hand, if you can add hvac then youve got a nice spot.

A mini-split unit could be a solution if you can't add the space into your household hvac

[Glenn]

2 hours ago, peejman said:

What's between the ceiling of your room and the bottom of your porch? Does the ceiling slope any direction?  

Does the room stay closed most of the time?

Is the room a noticeably different temperature than the rest of the basement? Does the ceiling feel colder than the other walls?

Do you run a dehumidifier?

The ceiling of the room is simply the corrugated steel form and about 5 inches of reinforced concrete. The room is not climate controlled. It opens to a large unfinished area of the basement thru a 4' door opening and seems to stay about 60 degrees year around. My intent was to install a vault type door but that is on hold because of the condensation. I tried running a dehumidifier,but that didn't seem to help and had to be emptied twice a day.  I believe spray foam insulation on the ceiling is the only fix but I have been shocked at how much that costs.  Wingshooter should consider this problem and plan for it.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Glenn

[seez52]

6 hours ago, Glenn said:

do you have any problem with condensation under the porch? We have almost the exact same thing and in cold weather it rains from condensation on the ceiling.

yes we did. It rained in there a lot due to being cold outside and warm/humid on the inside. I run a dehumidifier but am planning to take it out and build an air transfer duct to see if I can get away without it. But, the main thing that fixed the condensation was sticking 3/4 inch foam insulation to the ceiling. I tried gluing it but it would eventually come down. I used fender washers and a Paslode gas powered nail gun and shot nails right into the ceiling. Hasn't come down again! You'll also need to tape the joints between the sheets. Use Tyvek tape and it will be there forever.

Edited December 31, 2016 by seez52

[peejman]

1 hour ago, Glenn said:

The ceiling of the room is simply the corrugated steel form and about 5 inches of reinforced concrete. The room is not climate controlled. It opens to a large unfinished area of the basement thru a 4' door opening and seems to stay about 60 degrees year around. My intent was to install a vault type door but that is on hold because of the condensation. I tried running a dehumidifier,but that didn't seem to help and had to be emptied twice a day.  I believe spray foam insulation on the ceiling is the only fix but I have been shocked at how much that costs.  Wingshooter should consider this problem and plan for it.

So there's no fill or gravel between the concrete (which is the bottom of the porch?) and the steel roof of the room?  Is there a moisture barrier?  If not, it's probably gonna rust out fairly quickly. 

Having to empty the dehumidifier twice a day isn't unusual. Plumb the dehumidifier drain into a floor drain if you have one. 

The 4' opening (and only one of them) is also a problem.  You need to set up a fan and force air circulation. It would help to cut two vent openings up high on either end so the air can move in/out near the ceiling.  

You might also look at drainage around the outside of the house. All that moisture is getting in there somehow. Make sure all the downspouts terminate well away from the house. Look for any areas where water might be running toward the house or puddling/flowing with a few feet when it rains. 

[Glenn]

I  don't think the moisture is coming from outside. The outside walls are poured block and fully waterproofed and drained the same as the rest of the basement. the porch is under roof and does not get rained on. The concrete is poured on corrugated steel. (core form I believe it is called). I don't want to introduce outside air because the temperature fluctuations would make the room not suited for what I have in mind. I might try the sheets of insulation.

[peejman]

The moisture has to be coming from somewhere. What's the humidity in the rest of the house? If the humidity in the house is about 60% or higher at 70deg, there's more than enough water in the air to cause condensation on the 55deg metal surface.

If you attach some sort of insulation  without drying it up and sealing it, I'd be afraid the metal will rust out under the insulation.  Spray foam should seal it, but it's got to be dry first and it's not cheap, as you found. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by peejman

[Sam1]

23 hours ago, bud said:

Thanks for the specifics @seez52

I've been looking at different movement options this morning, and swing in seems pretty manageable. The wall is new, so i will pay attention to the wall and opening framing plumbness and squareness.

My particular shelf is only holding folded clothes, so the door structure and hinges will have a pretty light and static load. 

 

You can get bookshelf doors prebuilt, hell probably even from homedepot/lowes.

[bud]

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Edited April 26, 2017 by bud