Handgun laws questions

[Chucktshoes]

As the resident anarchist who finds these laws unconscionable, let me provide a word of caution and advice. Any and all statements that lean towards you carrying being legal or allowed in these situations all depend on the most friendly and understanding of officers being the one you encounter. I'm of belief that any law that criminalizes any behavior that isn't a violation of the life, liberty, or property of another isn't just ill-advised, or illegitimate, but immoral and wholly unjust. So I choose to do as I wish without regard to the law. That said, I'm a grown man who understands the consequences if I encounter a cop who doesn't  have the same views on liberty and freedom that I do. 

Thats a long winded way of saying that before you engage in any action or behavior you need to make sure that you are fully aware of the consequences of dealing with someone who doesn't agree with your conclusions that justify your behavior. The consequences in this case can be permanent and possibly fatal. These are big boy games with big boy rules. Make sure you understand the rules of the game before you decide to play. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[300winmag]

Check with your TWRA game warden that gave your lease the hog permit.  I am not in an area with hogs, so I am not familiar with the game regs behind those hog permits that leases can get.  I just know that you can get permission with those permits to kill hogs 24/7.  I have no idea what you are limited to as far as firearms used to kill hogs day or night. 

I'm assuming you have a deer lease, and not duck lease.  I don't know much about the regs behind duck hunting.  I do know as far as hunting you CANNOT carry any centerfire rifle or centerfire pistol during the roughly two months of archery deer season and muzzleloading deer season.  You can only carry rimfire pistols, rimfire rifles, and shotguns with at most T shot.  If you are bow hunting deer, you cannot carry any sort of firearm without a handgun carry permit (limited to handgun that cannot be used for a hunting purpose).  You can of course carry centerfire rifles and centerfire handguns during modern gun deer season, just need the modern gun deer license.  Coyote season is year round and you can use centerfire rifles and centerfire handguns on them, except during that two months of archery and muzzleloading deer season (limited to T shot or rimfire firearms).  You also can't have any centerfire rifles and centerfire pistols at night, no matter what season it is.

But talk with your game warden that your lease got the hog permit from.  He'll be able to tell you what you can use day or night for hogs and also other game.  Also verify everything with the TWRA hunting guide.

Edited December 27, 2016 by 300winmag

[Wingshooter]

On 12/24/2016 at 3:20 PM, quickbiscuit said:

Winmag, I don't think I could convince you that the sky is blue.  You'll be a much better internet lawyer when you learn to read every word of each applicable statute and then apply just a teensy bit of logic when trying to understand what you've read.  You need to read up on what "intent to go armed" means and then realize that 1307 includes weapons other than handguns.  Do you think that when the statutes were enacted, that the legislature intended that someone could carry a 12-inch Bowie knife just because they were participating in a sport shooting activity?  That's the same foolish argument that you're making for carrying a handgun while fishing.  They have no relation to one another.  

P.S. I'm aware that there is no restriction on knives anymore but am using some legislative history to prove a point.

I understand exactly what @300winmag is saying. 1308 specifically references 1307 and it specifically mentions "handgun." 

 

I know it's vague, but in my reading of the law, I think a 19 year old is legal to carry a handgun in a lawful vehicle to private land. Then carry that handgun on that private land while engaging in fishing. With that said, every LEO in the state does not know every detail of the law. 

 

 

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, 300winmag said:

....  I do know as far as hunting you CANNOT carry any centerfire rifle or centerfire pistol during the roughly two months of archery deer season and muzzleloading deer season.  ....

Unless you have a carry permit.

- OS

[monkeylizard]

On 12/24/2016 at 1:35 PM, 300winmag said:

It appears to me that the legislature tried to include common outdoor activities that people have guns such as camping, shooting, hunting, and fishing.  Whether the person has a 22 rifle or a pistol, it is all the same when someone doesn't have a handgun carry permit.

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(3)  At the person's:

          (A)  Place of residence;

          (B)  Place of business; or

          (C)  Premises;

     (4)  Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

 

I don't think that was their intent at all and that's why they used the words "Incident to". As in " in order to participate in these activities, you'll usually need a device considered a weapon under state law. In those cases, you're OK." It also says "Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon". It does not single out firearms or handguns. Fishing and trapping generally requires a knife of some kind, and camping often includes an axe or hatchet as part of the camping activities. Both of which were considered weapons at the time of 1308's passing. none of those 3 activities require a firearm, so firearm possession is not incident to those activities. Hunting and sport shooting would of course generally have firearms as part of the activity, so in those cases, firearm possession is incident to the activity.

Edited December 27, 2016 by monkeylizard

[chances R]

9 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

I don't think that was their intent at all and that's why they used the words "Incident to". As in " in order to participate in these activities, you'll usually need a device considered a weapon under state law. In those cases, you're OK." It also says "Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon". It does not single out firearms or hauns. Fishing and trapping generally requires a knife of some kind, and camping often includes an axe or hatchet as part of the camping activities. Both of which were considered weapons at the time of 1308's passing. none of those 3 activities require a firearm, so firearm possession is not incident to those activities. Hunting and sport shooting would of course generally have firearms as part of the activity, so in those cases, firearm possession is incident to the activity.

Excellent point!  That is why lawyers 'argue' their point.  Can certainly see your logic and therefore without a HCP, would seem to make it risky for the OP to carry while fishing.

[Wingshooter]

2 minutes ago, chances R said:

Excellent point!  That is why lawyers 'argue' their point.  Can certainly see your logic and therefore without a HCP, would seem to make it risky for the OP to carry while fishing.

Unless he sets a target out next to the fishing hole...

[chances R]

LOL,  but using dynamite gets better results

[Wingshooter]

@JsLangley personally, I wouldn't if you're just fishing. Can you get legal authorization from the landowner to hunt the hogs per the new regs? Or target shoot on the lease? Then the gray area becomes more black and white.

[300winmag]

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/wild-hog-regulations

See what kind of firearms you are able to use to kill hogs with the TWRA permit that your lease has and other details.  Normally, for example, you can't use centerfire rifles or handguns after dark when hunting but not sure if killing hogs falls under hunting anymore.  Under the 'Control for Landowners' section:

"Landowners have more opportunity than ever before to control wild hogs on their properties. They can shoot wild hogs year-round during the day without limit and trap with bait outside of big game seasons. Furthermore, landowners may obtain an exemption from their TWRA regional office enabling them to kill wild hogs at night using a spotlight, and to trap year-round."

Of course if you can target shoot at your lease, that should be fine also.  I think anyone would agree that since you are 19 without a permit you would be legal with your handgun loaded in your vehicle and also carrying at your lease to target shoot.  The hog permit may cover this too if a handgun is a legal harvesting device, whether for trapped hogs or hogs that you try to get.  Coyote season is also year round (but would require following game regs as far as legal harvesting device and hunting hours).  Modern gun deer season you should also be fine for carrying a centerfire handgun.

Edited December 27, 2016 by 300winmag

[JsLangley]

I think I'll call twra and ask them what they would allow as far as carrying a centerfire handgun as a sidearm for hogs. And I'm pressing this issue because I have been hunting before and had a hog turn and run at me. Luckily a had a 12 gauge shotgun in my hands but I also often hunt squirrels with a .22. And if a 250-300lb hog is charging at me with the intent to gash open my legs then I don't really want to rely on tickling him to death with that .22. Now I know people are going to say "well I kill hogs all of the time with a .22 Lr." Yes I know they can be killed with a well timed and well placed shot. But I would rather have something that will stop the animal right there and then. Like I said I know hogs can be killed with a .22lr as I have done it myself once or twice. But a soldier doesn't go into war with a baseball bat simply because he knows it can potentially be deadly. All of that said....thanks again for the help everyone lol

[JsLangley]

Update: so basically I have called everyone under the sun trying to get a yes or no answer on this topic. I started with twra, then Tennessee department of safety, then the sheriffs office. And like some of u said....I got a different answer every time. A man at the dep. of homeland security said I can't have a handgun at all except at home which I know is incorrect. Also another lady from there said I can have a handgun in my truck loaded or unloaded as long as it's not on my person. I also got numerous yes and no answers on the hunting topic. Eventually I asked my papaw and he seems to think for a weapon to be used for hunting it has to have a 4 inch barrel. So that rules that out since my xd has a 3.3" barrel. Also a police officer told me that I can have a pistol in my truck if I'm 21 and I can legally target shoot. Also that I would have to contact twra about the hunting thing. So I'm getting the run-around and I'm being led in circles. It's pretty bad that my papaw knows more than the TENNESSEE GOVERNMENT does about handgun laws. So in conclusion....what can I do with a handgun?....I DONT KNOW. NOBODY KNOWS, ESPECIALLY THE GOVERNMENT

[JsLangley]

Idk who else to call besides the White House and I'm almost certain they won't know. I'm going to try the NRA and I'll let u guys know what happens

[peejman]

All those vague and conflicting answers implies there's been no significant case law to provide clear interpretation, which further implies there's been no prosecution of alleged violations, which yet further implies either there haven't been any citations issued, or there were plenty of other issues available for prosecution so they didn't bother with this. 

[Wingshooter]

2 hours ago, JsLangley said:

Update: so basically I have called everyone under the sun trying to get a yes or no answer on this topic. I started with twra, then Tennessee department of safety, then the sheriffs office. And like some of u said....I got a different answer every time. A man at the dep. of homeland security said I can't have a handgun at all except at home which I know is incorrect. Also another lady from there said I can have a handgun in my truck loaded or unloaded as long as it's not on my person. I also got numerous yes and no answers on the hunting topic. Eventually I asked my papaw and he seems to think for a weapon to be used for hunting it has to have a 4 inch barrel. So that rules that out since my xd has a 3.3" barrel. Also a police officer told me that I can have a pistol in my truck if I'm 21 and I can legally target shoot. Also that I would have to contact twra about the hunting thing. So I'm getting the run-around and I'm being led in circles. It's pretty bad that my papaw knows more than the TENNESSEE GOVERNMENT does about handgun laws. So in conclusion....what can I do with a handgun?....I DONT KNOW. NOBODY KNOWS, ESPECIALLY THE GOVERNMENT

The 4" barrel WAS the rule, but they did away with that a few years ago.

 

Basically, you have to interpret the law as best you can, make an informed decision on the side of caution and be able to defend your actions logically. The safest course of action is wait until 21 and get a HCP. However, It seems clear to me that you're legal to have it in your legally owned vehicle now. It seems clear to me that you're legal to take it target shooting on private land. Camping and fishing have brought mixed interpretations, so to error on the side of caution says that law enforcement will have mixed interpretations there as well. In order to hunt hogs at all n TN you have to meet some requirements with the landowner also. I'd check into jumping through the hoops to be one of the people that can legally hunt hogs on your lease... that would give you the "incidental to hunting" argument. Otherwise, carrying a target, some ear muffs and target ammo with you when you go fishing might be your best option, lol.

[peejman]

I have a friend who carries while he bow hunts (on his own property) due to issues with coyotes.  He explained why to the game warden and the warden said "good thinking, just don't shoot the deer."

Edited December 29, 2016 by peejman

[JsLangley]

A sergeant which the twra recommended I talk to just called back and told me that I had to have a 4 inch barrel for the gun to be labeled a "hunting weapon". Anything shorter is strictly self protection weapon in which case u have to have a HCP to carry. I will also add that I am legally hunting hogs. I am on a private lease and I am listed on the exemption to kill hogs legally 24/7 using any method I like besides dogs in our area

Edited December 29, 2016 by JsLangley

[gregintenn]

4 hours ago, JsLangley said:

Update: so basically I have called everyone under the sun trying to get a yes or no answer on this topic. I started with twra, then Tennessee department of safety, then the sheriffs office. And like some of u said....I got a different answer every time. A man at the dep. of homeland security said I can't have a handgun at all except at home which I know is incorrect. Also another lady from there said I can have a handgun in my truck loaded or unloaded as long as it's not on my person. I also got numerous yes and no answers on the hunting topic. Eventually I asked my papaw and he seems to think for a weapon to be used for hunting it has to have a 4 inch barrel. So that rules that out since my xd has a 3.3" barrel. Also a police officer told me that I can have a pistol in my truck if I'm 21 and I can legally target shoot. Also that I would have to contact twra about the hunting thing. So I'm getting the run-around and I'm being led in circles. It's pretty bad that my papaw knows more than the TENNESSEE GOVERNMENT does about handgun laws. So in conclusion....what can I do with a handgun?....I DONT KNOW. NOBODY KNOWS, ESPECIALLY THE GOVERNMENT

Just wait 'til you learn how much the average law enforcement agent knows along the side of the road.

Were I on private land as you stated, I'd do as I damn well pleased. Your mileage may vary.

Edited December 29, 2016 by gregintenn

[Wingshooter]

47 minutes ago, JsLangley said:

A sergeant which the twra recommended I talk to just called back and told me that I had to have a 4 inch barrel for the gun to be labeled a "hunting weapon". Anything shorter is strictly self protection weapon in which case u have to have a HCP to carry. I will also add that I am legally hunting hogs. I am on a private lease and I am listed on the exemption to kill hogs legally 24/7 using any method I like besides dogs in our area

He apearantly hasn't read the TWRA hunting and trapping guide in a few years  The 4" restriction was removed. Everything you are seeking can be found on pages 14 and 15 of the TWRA guide https://www.tn.gov/assets/entities/twra/attachments/huntguide.pdf

It specifically states that hunting not allowed with handgun under age 18, so it obviosly is at age 19.

I think you're covered since you are on the exemption to hunt hogs... you can still be hunting hogs while you are fishing.

[JsLangley]

Thanks wing shooter. This is what I found using that URL: 

Persons with a handgun carry permit pursuant to TCA 39-17-1351 may possess a handgun
the entire year while on the premises of any TWRA refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area, including the North and South Cherokee. Nothing in this subsection shall authorize a person to use any handgun to hunt unless such person is in full compliance with all wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

For all other Federally managed properties such as refuges and military installations (example: Oak Ridge WMA) contact that speci c facility or location.  I still couldn't find whether it has to be 4 inches or if I can carry while hunting at my age without a HCP. Please let me know if I missed something

[Oh Shoot]

24 minutes ago, JsLangley said:

.  I still couldn't find whether it has to be 4 inches ...

The 4" has been gone for years. That's why it's not mentioned on TWRA site.

Things that are against the law are mentioned, all the things that are legal are not, except in a few cases for clarification, that's how statutory laws are written.

The only proviso is "centerfire". You can go after bear with a .25 caliber 2 inch barrelled mouse gun if you like. Which would make hunting a lot more fair IMNSHO.

- OS

Edited December 29, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[JsLangley]

Oh shoot do u know of anywhere that says it can be any barrel length so I could read it? All I see is it saying if I'm in "full compliance with the rules and regs" but that's what I'm trying to find out lol. What are the rules and regs. Basically all I need to know is if my 3.3 inch barrel would be legal for me to open carry while hunting. I've found numerous times that it's ok for me, being 19 years old, to open carry while hunting as long as I am using the appropriate caliber for that season. 

[JsLangley]

The sergeant told me it had to be 4 inches. But as I said before.....even the Tennessee Department of Homeland Security and Safety didn't know. I got different answers every time. So a different twra law enforcement officer could give me a different answer. How am I supposed to abide by the law if my government doesn't know what the law is or can't tell me

[Wingshooter]

17 minutes ago, JsLangley said:

  I still couldn't find whether it has to be 4 inches or if I can carry while hunting at my age without a HCP. Please let me know if I missed something

You won't find a 4" requirement because there isn't one. It used to be 4" minimum in the guide, but I remember when they removed it. Now they simply say centerfire handgun.

 

You can't really "carry" while hunting at your age, but you can hunt with a handgun during legal seasons, etc. if you're not under 18.  Page 14 of the guide, #4 under Prohibited Acts: "Juveniles under the age of eighteen (18) are prohibited from using handguns for the purpose of hunting ". Therefore, being 19, you're not prohibited from hunting with a handgun. You use that table on page 14 to see what legal hunting devices are for different game.

The rules for hunting hogs are addressed on page 31

[Oh Shoot]

11 minutes ago, JsLangley said:

Oh shoot do u know of anywhere that says it can be any barrel length so I could read it? ...

No. As I said, because there is no longer a restriction. Or it would be under the hunting methods section on TWRA site.

Can I find anywhere where it says it's legal to whistle a tune while walking down the street? Same thing.

And as others have said, you're quickly discovering just how little many of our LE personnel actually know about the finer points of TN (and often Federal) law.

- OS

Edited December 29, 2016 by Oh Shoot