Handgun laws questions

[quickbiscuit]

9 minutes ago, 300winmag said:

The code reads that lawful fishing is a defense to prosecution just like hunting and being at your home are defenses to going armed.  You may not use a firearm to get your fish, but plenty of fishermen take firearms with them for snake protection.  The whole purpose behind the little J frame smith 22 kit revolvers is fishing, camping, and plinking.  If you truly are carrying a firearm for snake protection and especially have a 22 rifle or pistol loaded with a couple snake shot shells, that would appear legal and not appear to be intent to go armed (even without the fishing defense).

Like I was saying, the problem someone without a permit runs into when carrying a firearm in outdoor situations are the TWRA game regulations.  Game regs are what would keep someone from carrying at a public lake or say carrying a centerfire handgun during small game season.  If you were carrying a pistol loaded with snake shot at your neighbor's private pond, that would seem to be ok by my reading.

 

Instead of playing internet lawyer why don't you do the responsible thing and give this young man some advice that will UNDOUBTEDLY keep him out of trouble?  You're giving him BS defenses that he can use after he's been charged with a crime.  You don't get to negotiate with the police officers or game wardens.  That happens when it's already too late and you're in front of a judge and DA.  39-17-1308 is not just about defenses to carrying a handgun, and nowhere does it explicitly state that fishing is a defense to carrying a handgun with the intent to go armed.  1307 is the controlling statute here, and they have to be read together.

[tnhawk]

In a short time you will be old enough to obtain an HCP.  If you carry before that time and a game warden or police officer charges you with a crime, it will result in a criminal record will be a burden for many years.  Patience is the best answer.

[owejia]

Welcome to the maze of Tn. gun laws. Written by lawyers to keep everyone confused.

[jparris001]

On 12/23/2016 at 8:16 AM, peejman said:

You expect the government to know the laws....   

Yeah brother, ain't that the truth!?!?!?!

 

Back to the OP........... just carry. Laws are just crap someone has written down in a book somewhere. Regardless of age, race, religion, sexual preference, or which phase of the moon we're currently in........ just carry. You're only going to be in trouble if you get the gun out and start waving it around. And you should only  get the gun out and start waving it around if YOUR life (I'm hesitant to draw for anyone outside of myself) is in danger. And when it comes down to that, it's either judged by 12 or carried by 6. 

[quickbiscuit]

1 hour ago, owejia said:

Welcome to the maze of Tn. gun laws. Written by lawyers to keep everyone confused.

Actually it's the other way around and that's the problem.  The majority of lawmakers are not lawyers and have no idea how statutes should be written so as to avoid ambiguities and multiple interpretations.

37 minutes ago, jparris001 said:

Yeah brother, ain't that the truth!?!?!?!

 

Back to the OP........... just carry. Laws are just crap someone has written down in a book somewhere. Regardless of age, race, religion, sexual preference, or which phase of the moon we're currently in........ just carry. You're only going to be in trouble if you get the gun out and start waving it around. And you should only  get the gun out and start waving it around if YOUR life (I'm hesitant to draw for anyone outside of myself) is in danger. And when it comes down to that, it's either judged by 12 or carried by 6. 

And this is why you don't ask for legal advice on the internet.  Ignorant.

[chances R]

9 hours ago, quickbiscuit said:

Instead of playing internet lawyer why don't you do the responsible thing and give this young man some advice that will UNDOUBTEDLY keep him out of trouble?  You're giving him BS defenses that he can use after he's been charged with a crime.  You don't get to negotiate with the police officers or game wardens.  That happens when it's already too late and you're in front of a judge and DA.  39-17-1308 is not just about defenses to carrying a handgun, and nowhere does it explicitly state that fishing is a defense to carrying a handgun with the intent to go armed.  1307 is the controlling statute here, and they have to be read together.

If in doubt read the above over and over.  Use your head, avoid conflict.  Carry pepper spray.  Carry in your car as allowed, but avoid the grey area of the law.  If charged by LEO it will be unpleasant, expensive, and possibly long-lasting ramifications.

[jparris001]

57 minutes ago, quickbiscuit said:

Actually it's the other way around and that's the problem.  The majority of lawmakers are not lawyers and have no idea how statutes should be written so as to avoid ambiguities and multiple interpretations.

And this is why you don't ask for legal advice on the internet.  Ignorant.

Enjoy marching in lockstep............

[gregintenn]

While it is legal for one between the ages of 18 and 21 to have a loaded handgun in their vehicle, I wouldn't advise it.

I've found that many police thrive on intimidating minors, and most know very little about law.

My son and I have recently had this discussion.

[chances R]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

While it is legal for one between the ages of 18 and 21 to have a loaded handgun in their vehicle, I wouldn't advise it.

I've found that many police thrive on intimidating minors, and most know very little about law.

My son and I have recently had this discussion.

As devil's advocate, would you have the same discussion with your under 21 daughter traveling across the state?  I see no vagueness in the motor vehicle / castle doctrine.  No consent to search, no duty to inform.  I understand where you are coming from, but IMO the law is clear in this regard.

[300winmag]

Yep the way I understand it, if someone is 18 and in legal possession of their vehicle and firearm, they are good to go as far as having the gun loaded in the car.

[300winmag]

If fishing is not a defense to prosecution just like hunting, camping, and sport shooting, then why is it listed under the 'defenses to unlawful possession or carrying" title along with the residence defense?  Like I said, it is common for fishermen and even campers to carry guns loaded with snake shot.  I'm not saying it is ok for a fisherman to carry the gun at Wal Mart when he buys a fishing pole, but it would seem that the fisherman could have the gun while actually fishing at say a private pond (due to game regs).  It would seem to be that if the legislature only intended on people to carry guns away from their property while hunting/trapping and target shooting, you would not see the fishing and camping defenses in that line.  It appears to me that the legislature tried to include common outdoor activities that people have guns such as camping, shooting, hunting, and fishing.  Whether the person has a 22 rifle or a pistol, it is all the same when someone doesn't have a handgun carry permit.

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(3)  At the person's:

          (A)  Place of residence;

          (B)  Place of business; or

          (C)  Premises;

     (4)  Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by 300winmag

[Chucktshoes]

 

[300winmag]

I don't see how someone carrying a rifle with snake shot, shotgun, or a handgun with snake shot falls under intent to go armed while fishing just like shooting targets is not intent to go armed.  Possession of a weapon isn't illegal, it is the person's intent to go armed with that weapon that is illegal.  Taking a gun to a gunsmith or gun store may not be listed as a defense, but that is not intent to go armed either.

TN AG Opinion 96-080

QUESTIONS

    Article I, Section 26 of the Tennessee Constitution provides for the right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Do the following statutes violate this provision?

1.  Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1307(a), making it an offense to carry a firearm with the intent to go armed;

1.  Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1307(a)(1) states that "a person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm," a certain kind of knife or a club. This statute does not prohibit owning or carrying a firearm. It prohibits the carrying of a firearm with the intent to go armed. Thus, the carrying of a firearm is prohibited only when it is carried in a manner so as to be "readily accessible and available for use in the carrying out of purposes either offensive or defensive."  Kendall v. State, 118 Tenn. 156, 101 S.W. 189 (1906). This statute does not, in the opinion of this Office, infringe upon the citizen's "right to keep and bear arms for their common defense."

Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-1308 lists a number of defenses to the application of  Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-1307. Included in the list is when the person is carrying a weapon that is unloaded and unconcealed about his person and the ammunition is not in the immediate vicinity; when the person is authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to  Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-1315, the handgun permit statute; when the person is at home, at his place of business or on the premises; and when the person is lawfully hunting, trapping or engaged in other lawful activity. Thus the application of   Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-1307 is rather narrow. The statutory scheme envisions many situations when the carrying of a weapon does not violate this statute.

 

 

 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

As devil's advocate, would you have the same discussion with your under 21 daughter traveling across the state?  I see no vagueness in the motor vehicle / castle doctrine.  No consent to search, no duty to inform.  I understand where you are coming from, but IMO the law is clear in this regard.

I understand, and was only answering a question. It would likely never become an issue.

I can see my kid leaving his in his truck, forgetting it's there, and somehow getting caught with it in the high school parking lot, which is a no no. This would follow him throughout life.

Having said that, there was a gun in my truck since I've had a driver's license.

Edited December 24, 2016 by gregintenn

[quickbiscuit]

Winmag, I don't think I could convince you that the sky is blue.  You'll be a much better internet lawyer when you learn to read every word of each applicable statute and then apply just a teensy bit of logic when trying to understand what you've read.  You need to read up on what "intent to go armed" means and then realize that 1307 includes weapons other than handguns.  Do you think that when the statutes were enacted, that the legislature intended that someone could carry a 12-inch Bowie knife just because they were participating in a sport shooting activity?  That's the same foolish argument that you're making for carrying a handgun while fishing.  They have no relation to one another.  

P.S. I'm aware that there is no restriction on knives anymore but am using some legislative history to prove a point.

Edited December 24, 2016 by quickbiscuit

[quickbiscuit]

And since now you're changing your argument, the person who started this thread is not asking if he can carry a .22 with ratshot while fishing - which is still a bad idea if you don't have a HCP.  He is looking for an excuse to carry a loaded weapon before he's of legal age to do so.  You'd be doing him a service if you wouldn't derail the thread anymore.

[300winmag]

The way I've always understood intent to go armed is a purpose/intent law that it covers people possessing/using firearms, knives (until recent), and clubs for offensive or self defense against people.  For example, you can carry and have a baseball bat and you are using it to play ball and that is not intent to go armed but if you are using it for self defense against people, then that is unlawful and falls under intent to go armed.  Same until recently for knives over 4 inches.  You have a big knife for cooking but if you are carrying it for protection against people then that is intent to go armed.

I do agree that if someone is trying to carry a firearm for protection from people, then that falls under intent to go armed. 

That tells you how bad the whole law is when there are different understandings of this intent to go armed.

[quickbiscuit]

I'm going to say one more thing and leave this alone.  Law enforcement officers are not in the business of making a determination on the spot as to whether someone is carrying a handgun illegally.  I dare say that none of them think that it's ok for a 19 year old to carry a loaded pistol just because he's bass fishing on Kentucky Lake.  When it comes to guns, at least in the eyes of law enforcement, you're guilty until proven innocent.  It's going to be up to the state to prove that you were carrying with the intent to go armed, but they've got a heckuva lot better argument than you do.  You're going to have your gun confiscated, spend thousands in legal fees, end up in a courtroom, and may come out of it with a criminal conviction.  I don't hear anyone else telling this young man that it's a good idea to strap on a pistol and go catch some crappie.

[quickbiscuit]

27 minutes ago, 300winmag said:

I do agree that if someone is trying to carry a firearm for protection from people, then that falls under intent to go armed. 

That tells you how bad the whole law is when there are different understandings of this intent to go armed.

Good grief man.  There is only one way to interpret the intent to go armed.  If you've got a loaded gun on you in public, YOU ARE INTENDING TO GO ARMED.  DUHHHH!!!  This whole excuse of fishing and being able to carry without a permit is just stupid.  Now I remember why I usually avoid these threads.

Dang, you even bolded the best part of your post above and still don't seem to get it:

"Thus, the carrying of a firearm is prohibited only when it is carried in a manner so as to be "readily accessible and available for use in the carrying out of purposes either offensive or defensive."  Kendall v. State, 118 Tenn. 156, 101 S.W. 189 (1906)"

Edited December 24, 2016 by quickbiscuit

[bud]

.

Edited April 26, 2017 by bud

[Oh Shoot]

22 hours ago, quickbiscuit said:

If you are carrying with the "intent to go armed" without a HCP you are in violation of TCA 39-17-1307.  ...

Case law has shown that a loaded firearm (or ammo in immediate vicinity) equals intent to go armed, simple as that.

- OS

[JsLangley]

Thanks everybody and I appreciate everyone trying to help me out Though I am very confused and am not sure what's right and what's wrong lol. Just a little background on me....I hunt on a private lease where there are many wild hogs that have been known to be aggressive. I'm not really worried about the fishing thing but I would like to carry my 45 while hunting in case a wild hog tries to tear my leg off. There are also a few bears but I'm more worried about the hogs. I think I'll just avoid carrying loaded in my truck as it seems to risky. Doesn't anyone know for certain what the laws are regarding me open carrying while hunting or scouting before hunting season? Again thanks for all of the replies because I read every one of them

[JsLangley]

Basically what I have found regarding hunting is....nobody under the age of 18 can legally carry a pistol even while hunting. Also you can't carry a centerfire handgun during small game season except furbearers and crow but you can carry a rim fire handgun during all small game except migratory birds. Also I can carry a centerfire handgun during all big game seasons but no rimfire weapons. But I don't see anything on wild hogs. Obviously it's big game but isn't listed as an option. I will add that I do have a permit to legally kill hogs at any time of the year(even during no season). So basically this limits me to only carrying snake loads(shot shells) in my 45. I guess I could carry an extra mag of JHPs because FMJ is prohibited. But I hunt from a tree stand with a 30-06 from a tree stand so I won't need a pistol for hogs at this point. I was hoping I could carry my 45 during squirrel season with my 22 just in case one charged at me. But oh well I guess. Honestly some of these laws are stupid. It's apparent to me that the ones who wrote these laws don't have to read them. I found all of this from tn.gov

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/hunting-equipment-methods

Edited December 26, 2016 by JsLangley

[A.J. Holst]

I wish I was 18 - 21, or 22, 23...

[quickbiscuit]

My advice is the same as the fishing scenario.  If you aren't using the handgun to HUNT during an open season, you should leave it at the house.  This is very clear.  If you're not hunting with it, then it falls back under the intent to go armed and you'd be in violation.  I can't understand why you want to press this issue so badly.  Cool your engines, and get your HCP when you're 21.  LEOs will have no sympathy for you when you get caught with a loaded pistol.