When the poo flies question.

[Guest m&pc9]

I think about different situations when Im driving around, and this one stumped me a little.

So you are standing in line at the Quick Mart. The guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier and wants the money. Do you pull your gun and put a bullet in the back of his head? Do you put the gun to his head and tell him to drop his weapon? Do you run away screaming for your mother? Can you suggest more options?

At first I thought stick the gun to his head and tell him to drop his. But I dont have any training on how to disarm someone, So there is a good chance I will end up in a body bag.

I like the idea of just shooting him from behind. But I watch old cowboy movies and I guess "you never shoot a man from behind" kind of sticks out. But I think this way is best way if you want to live. But how would a judge and jury think?

I am definitely looking for more training. And also you never know what you will do when faced with danger, But I try to keep myself mentally prepared so if it does happen. I dont run away screaming for my mother!

[mousegunner]

The question is: Is the gunman a threat to your life or the life of another? If so, then you are justified in shooting. He might shoot the clerk. He might turn around and shoot you. So shoot! Shoot him in the back of the head, sure. On the other hand, get ready for a big civil law suit. Especially if it turns out his gun is unloaded, or you accidentally shoot the clerk, or something like that. That's the price that comes with being safe from criminal gunmen.

[Guest db99wj]

If he pulls a gun, whether it is loaded or not, that doesn't matter in my opinion, it is a gun, he has pulled it, there is reasonable doubt that he is planning on using it. You feared for yours or his life, I think you would be justified.

Also, I would think the odds of this happening would be very low. Usually, and I see these daily here in the Memphis news where a C-store is robbed, it is usually just the clerk and the gunman, usually no others are in the store. So if bg is in there, you are in there, they are going to browse a little longer until you leave before they do anything.

What would I do. I don't know. For one I do everything I can not to go into C-stores. I pay at the pump, and I don't need a drink or something to eat during those times. Only time I really go in is if we are on a road trip.

But back to what would I do. Depending on the situation, my first priority would be my safety, I have to go home that night, If I pull the gun, then it is time to use it or if not, do I retreat to a defensive position with gun drawn to protect myself. Hmm, good question.

[G27]

I'm not a LEO, so if there's any way I can back away and get out, I'm doing so. I'm thinking I'm probably not going to try to be a hero unless it's me or mine on the line, honestly.

[Punisher84]

Legally you would be fine if you shot the BG in the situation you described. A gun does not have to be loaded or even real to give you the "reasonable fear" part of self-defense.

I don't know what I would do, but I think if I was on the other end I would want someone to save me. I would only take the shot if I KNEW I would not hit the clerk or a bystander. I would aslo be on the lookout for any of the BG's buddies.

The civil suit part would not be an issue unless you hit an innocent bystander. The new laws give you protection against a civil suit if the shooting is justified. Basically if you aren't criminally liable, you aren't liable in a civil suit.

[G27]

The civil suit part would not be an issue unless you hit an innocent bystander. The new laws give you protection against a civil suit if the shooting is justified. Basically if you aren't criminally liable, you aren't liable in a civil suit.

Wait - is this true? Not doubting you, I've just somehow missed it if it is...

[Guest m&pc9]

If he pulls a gun, whether it is loaded or not, that doesn't matter in my opinion, it is a gun, he has pulled it, there is reasonable doubt that he is planning on using it. You feared for yours or his life, I think you would be justified.

Also, I would think the odds of this happening would be very low. Usually, and I see these daily here in the Memphis news where a C-store is robbed, it is usually just the clerk and the gunman, usually no others are in the store. So if bg is in there, you are in there, they are going to browse a little longer until you leave before they do anything.

What would I do. I don't know. For one I do everything I can not to go into C-stores. I pay at the pump, and I don't need a drink or something to eat during those times. Only time I really go in is if we are on a road trip.

But back to what would I do. Depending on the situation, my first priority would be my safety, I have to go home that night, If I pull the gun, then it is time to use it or if not, do I retreat to a defensive position with gun drawn to protect myself. Hmm, good question.

I was thinking it had a low probability. But Im on the road all day going from call to call. So I have to stop at c-stores to pee and get a drink. My thoughts have always been if I pull it I have a reason to shoot.

[Guest m&pc9]

I don't know what I would do, but I think if I was on the other end I would want someone to save me. I would only take the shot if I KNEW I would not hit the clerk or a bystander. I would aslo be on the lookout for any of the BG's buddies.

Thats what I was thinking shoot them in the head and most likely it would go over the clerks head. Unless the BG is very short. And the clerk is someones son or daughter or husband or wife if it were my family I would want someone to help.

[Guest Astra900]

Cover my own, get down or get out. If confronted, I would fire, if not, it's not my problem. Some quikie mart's cash drawer ain't worth my life.

One good solution to it all, pay at the pump with a credit/debit card.

[DaveTN]

So you are standing in line at the Quick Mart. The guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier and wants the money.

Your scenario is one of the few where I would fire the first shot. If I am standing next to him, have nothing behind him and I know I can turn him off like a switch; I might take the shot if he moves his gun away from the clerk. If I’m farther away I’m probably not engaging him unless he starts shooting.

I really couldn’t care less that the guy is robbing the place, but if he decides to start shooting witnesses and I’m standing that close to him I probably would not have time to draw my weapon.

If he is robbing someone at gun point he is bought and paid for. However, you are not released from civil liability because you are justified in shooting. If you shoot an innocent bystander you will be held accountable.

[deerslayer]

The civil suit part would not be an issue unless you hit an innocent bystander. The new laws give you protection against a civil suit if the shooting is justified. Basically if you aren't criminally liable, you aren't liable in a civil suit.

I believe there has been a lot of debate about whether or not this law will hold water. Many lawyers laugh at this new law and say, "we'll see." I haven't heard of it being an issue yet, but anyone can sue anyone for just about anything, and many claim that a self defense shooting will be no exception.

[Punisher84]

I believe there has been a lot of debate about whether or not this law will hold water. Many lawyers laugh at this new law and say, "we'll see." I haven't heard of it being an issue yet, but anyone can sue anyone for just about anything, and many claim that a self defense shooting will be no exception.

That's true and the misconception is that it releases you from being sued. It doesn't. What it does is allow a protection from damages and it kind of builds a wall.

The law states that if you are cleared of charges, then sued, you'll still have to go to court and be represented, but the plaintiff will lose since there is no criminal case to prove negligence and they have to then pay your lawyer fees, lost wages, etc.

The theory behind it is to mainly prevent frivolous lawsuits by auntie Jo'Leen who just thought that piece of scum you capped was "such a good boy" and get her 10 mil payout.

I agree it's not bulletproof, but I like the theory behind it and I think it'll hold some water at least if it causes lawyers to re-think their taking on of lawsuits like these.

[wjh2657]

The law simply makes the State (County) pay for your court costs and Attorney fees if you are found innocent or justified in criminal proceedings. It has no effect on civil liability because of U.S. Supreme Court decisions that no state may enact laws suppressing the legal right to redress (right to sue.) I really think intent of lawmakers was to appease guntoting voters, knowing all along that the law has no teeth. The plaintiff's attorney will bring up USSC decisions, judge will rule for trial to continue, and you are being sued. Texas has same law and their judges normally honor it, only to have their decisions overturned in the Supreme Court and shooter being sued anyways. Only the government has immunity from lawsuit, there is no law that actually protects an individual from litigation for any reason.

If you shoot, you can be sued but not necessarily will be sued. Criminal court verdict of not guilty of murder does not keep civil jury finding you guilty of wrongful death ( O.J. was a valid point!)

To answer original post, if you shoot you will probably find store suing you too. The reason they don't have security guards is that they have a policy of handing over the money and let the cops sort it out. Cuts down on bloodshed all around. You will most likely get justifiable or no bill on criminal charges but have good chance but not certain chance of losing everything you have and will have in civil court.)

You makes your bets and you throws the dice! There is no blanket amnesty in place, otherwise we wouldn't have investigation of Officer involved shootings.

Everybody will have to follow their own conscience on this one, but just don't go into it thinking you are going to be hailed as a hero and blessed for your actions.

Edited January 3, 2009 by wjh2657

[DaveTN]

The law simply makes the State (County) pay for your court costs and Attorney fees if you are found innocent or justified in criminal proceedings.

I’m no attorney; but I don’t think so.

The law allows for a judgment against the people that brought the suit. A judgment against someone that has no ability to pay it is worthless.

Maybe an attorney can step in and tell us if the County or the State is going to foot the bill.

[Punisher84]

I’m no attorney; but I don’t think so.

The law allows for a judgment against the people that brought the suit. A judgment against someone that has no ability to pay it is worthless.

Maybe an attorney can step in and tell us if the County or the State is going to foot the bill.

That is correct. Believe me even if the court got stuck with the bill, you'd bet they'd go after the plaintiff tooth and nail.

I never said the law protected you from being sued, but it was designed to do 2 things.

1. Discourage the lawsuit in the first place and

2. Make it so people couldn't collect on a frivolous lawsuit.

I believe the law will ultimately hold some validity, maybe not all, but some.

[Guest CLH]

This scenario was the first episode of Best Defense.

[Guest db99wj]

A defense attorney that sees that it was justifible, an no charges were brought, will see that he doesn't want to take on that case. But that would not stop the individual from filing the lawsuit.

I had some time to think about it and read some of the posts, I would lean for my first priority would be to get back, out of the way, ready to go if he came toward me. I would be drawn and ready in case he was ready and willing to take out witnessess. So if it were to happen, I would probably be behind the twinkies.

[Guest m&pc9]

I didnt mean for this to turn in to a lawsuit thread. If I felt I were in danger I would not care. I just wanted you guys and gals opinions on the situation.

[Guest m&pc9]

Your scenario is one of the few where I would fire the first shot. If I am standing next to him, have nothing behind him and I know I can turn him off like a switch; I might take the shot if he moves his gun away from the clerk. If I’m farther away I’m probably not engaging him unless he starts shooting.

I like this idea.

[bvarnell]

To answer original post, if you shoot you will probably find store suing you too. The reason they don't have security guards is that they have a policy of handing over the money and let the cops sort it out. Cuts down on bloodshed all around. You will most likely get justifiable or no bill on criminal charges but have good chance but not certain chance of losing everything you have and will have in civil court.)

Which is why the register doesn't have more than $100 - $200 in it. Cheaper to take an occassional loss than to hire security.

[Schadenfreude]

First don't be oblivious his partner is gonna cap you in the back of the scull as soon as you move!

[Guest bkelm18]

First don't be oblivious his partner is gonna cap you in the back of the scull as soon as you move!

Thats why when you pull your gun, you perform a tactical crouch thereby causing BG #2 to shoot BG #1 in the back of the head. Then you perform a tactical turn-around and shoot BG #2 in the face while he stands there stunned that he just capped his buddy in the back of the head. Bang. Done. Next question.

[Guest DylisTN]

don't turn a robbery into a gunfight.

Take notes for the police. You wouldn't play russian roulett. And those odds are better than a gunfight.

[Guest bkelm18]

don't turn a robbery into a gunfight.

Take notes for the police. You wouldn't play russian roulett. And those odds are better than a gunfight.

What if the BG decides to turn the robbery into a gunfight?

[Farman]

A defense attorney that sees that it was justifible, an no charges were brought, will see that he doesn't want to take on that case. But that would not stop the individual from filing the lawsuit.

I had some time to think about it and read some of the posts, I would lean for my first priority would be to get back, out of the way, ready to go if he came toward me. I would be drawn and ready in case he was ready and willing to take out witnessess. So if it were to happen, I would probably be behind the twinkies.

This pretty much sounds like a good plan, unless the BG gets triggerhappy before you can back off.