Shot with .357 sig

[Erik88]

I found this to be interesting even though I don't own anything in the caliber. I copied it from another forum and thought you all might find it interesting as well.

 

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So early this morning, I worked a homicide where an armed intruder was shot by the homeowner. The gun used was a Glock 31C in .357 Sig. I've worked a lot of homicides and seen a lot of people shot, but that was the first one I've ever seen with a .357 Sig. I must say that I was very impressed with what I saw. The deceased was shot 3 times, twice in the leg and once in the abdomen. The deceased dropped where he stood. Now to the ammo used. The homeowner was shooting G2 RIP ammo. While I am not a fan of that bullet design and would rather use a premium hollowpoint, each round caused a massive amount of damage, HOWEVER, none of the rounds hit any bones. Had the intruder been shot in the chest instead of in the abdomen, I feel like he would have had a better chance of surviving due to the sternum and ribs. I just thought that it was interesting seeing firsthand the street performance of the .357 Sig round. Does anyone else here have any firsthand experience of the street performance of that round

 

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I've always known on paper that it was an impressive round but there is little to no data available on street performance nor are there very many testimonys. I'm just curious if there is anyone here that has seen it first hand to confirm that these results were what was to be expected of that caliber or if it was just a fluke. I've seen numerous .380, 9mm, .40, & .45 shootings and those almost always have the same results. Rarely have I ever been able to tell the difference from one caliber to another.

 

KappaAlphaASU

 

[Jamie Jackson]

That is interesting.

I've seen wounds from quite a few calibers, but not a .357 Sig and especially with a boutique ammo such as the one cited.

My experience has been the same regarding guessing the caliber from the entry wound appearance. The skin is simply too elastic, and humans can tolerate a lot of damage and keep functioning.

Good insight from the responding officer.

[E4 No More]

"Boutique" ammo or normal, I don't think an extra 200 fps or so was a bad thing.

[MP5_Rizzo]

I'm not sure this really means anything in regard to the caliber but more to the ammunition and the projectile.

[shotgunshooter]

I'm gonna guess and say the guy stopped and bleed out rather than being DOA.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[bersaguy]

• I like shotgun think he knew he was going to die and also think he picked the wrong house to intrude on......

[xtriggerman]

As far as considering an instantly fatal hit vs death due to a bleed out, I once read an extensive wound evaluation of culled African animals. The study wanted to find out why when all mechanics are virtualy the same, why some animals run while others drop dead instantly. The conclusion was linked to what cycle the heart was in when there was bullet impact. If the bullets hydraulic shock wave happened when the heart was in full contracted compression, the brain cells of the animal were in a state of massive hemorrhage. Those animals died almost instantly in every case. Despite the same caliber and impact zone, animals that shone no damaged brain tissue were always the runners upon bullet impact. These "runners" were thought to have been shot while the heart was in the non compression cycle. Anyone who has run heavy equipment hydraulics as I have would more than likely have no issues with this study. Makes perfect sense!

Edited December 16, 2016 by xtriggerman

[Sunfish]

The gut shot probably took a piece of his backbone out. Game over

[ma6907]

I of course agree with almost everything said here but I have to wonder what the cause of the stop and drop effect was from 2 shots to the leg and one to the abdomen?  Even in a bleed out situation there is normally around 2  1/2 min before the person who is shot becomes incapacitated.  Had to be a fragment to the spinal cord?  Or perhaps the guy just layed down? (which also happens.) As Xtriggeman suggested a shot to the brain is always incapacitating, even if not fatal.  A shot to the spinal cord is as well.  The percussive shock to the spinal cord (AND separately the brain) will nearly always incapacitate a human.  Several documented cases of muzzle flash ALONE incapacitating an attacker who was not even shot.  The most prominent study on these phenomena comes from Dr Martin Fackler's book about the Miami FBI Shootout.  Fackler's work on this subject is also where we got ballistics gel.

[ma6907]

On 12/15/2016 at 9:48 PM, xtriggerman said:

As far as considering an instantly fatal hit vs death due to a bleed out, I once read an extensive wound evaluation of culled African animals. The study wanted to find out why when all mechanics are virtualy the same, why some animals run while others drop dead instantly. The conclusion was linked to what cycle the heart was in when there was bullet impact. If the bullets hydraulic shock wave happened when the heart was in full contracted compression, the brain cells of the animal were in a state of massive hemorrhage. Those animals died almost instantly in every case. Despite the same caliber and impact zone, animals that shone no damaged brain tissue were always the runners upon bullet impact. These "runners" were thought to have been shot while the heart was in the non compression cycle. Anyone who has run heavy equipment hydraulics as I have would more than likely have no issues with this study. Makes perfect sense!

The actual physiology of what happens between animals and humans is shockingly the same.  The BEHAVIOR post being shot, however, is not.  Humans are influenced by things like movie myths and also an awareness of the situation surrounding being shot, whereas animals no not have this awareness.  Humans will react to how their brains tell them they should from things like movie myths (such as simply laying down or falling down when their injury does not necessitate that they should have to) but will also frequently keep going and run away when they probably SHOULD lay down.  It is a very fascinating science (to me) to figure out why some fall down and some run away.  Most handgun rounds are NOT capable of incapacitating a human instantly without some kind of trauma to the central nervous system (brain or spinal cord).  Of course scientifically if a handgun were capable of knocking down a human, it would also knock down the shooter shooting it.  Some rifles and shotguns ARE capable of knocking down a human, which is why we have recoil pads and lead sleds to shoot them.

[ma6907]

On 12/14/2016 at 9:19 AM, bersaguy said:

• I like shotgun think he knew he was going to die and also think he picked the wrong house to intrude on......

There is a rule spoken in Trauma medicine that strangely never gets mentioned on gun boards.  "If the patient was shot with a handgun and makes it alive to the ER, he will PROBABLY live.  If shot with a shotgun, he will probably still die."  Nonfatal shotgun wounds (especially to the chest and abdomen) typically still result of death from massive trauma and infection usually 2 or 3 days after the shot.  Many abdominal wounds from a shotgun make it to surgery with simply no way to sew it back together.  Would be analagous to trying to sew a hamburger back into a steak.  Not a good way to die.

[xtriggerman]

As we all know, ever instance of a shooting can be vastly different than another but in these statistics, there does appear to be a pattern. I think you guys will get a kick out of this if you have not yet seen this compilation.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Ahhh the dreaded " 1 shot stop list".... Considering that firing bursts (multiples of 2 to 4 ) and then assessing has become the norm now for many, you have to wonder just how many people would have stopped from 1 but could not physically fall down fast enough to keep from absorbing the other 2 or 3....

We pretty much know at this point in the game that about 1/2 of the people that get shot stop after 1 or 2 hits no matter where they are hit or what they are hit with. That is a psychological stop not a physiological stop. Most people just do not like being shot and want people to stop shooting them so they stop what they are doing....So ALL handgun calibers generally stop HALF of folks with 1 or 2 rounds.....

The problem is that  the other half of people DON'T stop with 1 or 2 shots . At that point the typical service cartridges 38sp, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP,357 Mag , 357SIG, tend to require a lot fewer follow up shots than .22 , .25, and .32 and .380.  The bad news is that there is no way to determine from one individual to the next HOW MANY it will take to stop any certain individual. 

So if we use a service caliber, and engage with multiple rounds as "plan A"  then we tend to have fewer failures to stop. 

[m16ty]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 4:22 PM, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Ahhh the dreaded " 1 shot stop list".... Considering that firing bursts (multiples of 2 to 4 ) and then assessing has become the norm now for many, you have to wonder just how many people would have stopped from 1 but could not physically fall down fast enough to keep from absorbing the other 2 or 3....

We pretty much know at this point in the game that about 1/2 of the people that get shot stop after 1 or 2 hits no matter where they are hit or what they are hit with. That is a psychological stop not a physiological stop. Most people just do not like being shot and want people to stop shooting them so they stop what they are doing....So ALL handgun calibers generally stop HALF of folks with 1 or 2 rounds.....

The problem is that  the other half of people DON'T stop with 1 or 2 shots . At that point the typical service cartridges 38sp, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP,357 Mag , 357SIG, tend to require a lot fewer follow up shots than .22 , .25, and .32 and .380.  The bad news is that there is no way to determine from one individual to the next HOW MANY it will take to stop any certain individual. 

So if we use a service caliber, and engage with multiple rounds as "plan A"  then we tend to have fewer failures to stop. 

That makes sense. If you get shot by one round, you could be inclined to think that's all there is and proceed. If you get shot with two rounds, it makes you wonder how many more are coming and you would be inclined to stop for fear of round 3, 4, etc.