Arming an Army after it falls apart

[Ronald_55]

I thought i posted this, but maybe if disappeared,

I saw a guy use match heads and scrapings from the match strike strip to reload primers. Looked easy and would be cheap.

Not sure if this is the first one I saw, but he covers the basics. Break up the match head, crush it fine, mix in strike strip scrapings, pull anvil from spent primer, flatten out divit from firing pin, refill, and put anvil back in. New primer ready.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7nphPRG6JA

I am sure you could stock some of the inert compounds to be mixed as need be without crushing match heads.

From Wikipedia:

"The striking surface on modern matchboxes is typically composed of 25% powdered glass or other abrasive material, 50% red phosphorus, 5% neutralizer, 4% carbon black, and 16% binder; and the match head is typically composed of 45–55% potassium chlorate, with a little sulfur and starch, a neutralizer (ZnO or CaCO
3), 20–40% of siliceous filler, diatomite, and glue.^[36] Some heads contain antimony(III) sulfide to make them burn more vigorously. Safety matches ignite due to the extreme reactivity of phosphorus with the potassium chlorate in the match head. When the match is struck the phosphorus and chlorate mix in a small amount forming something akin to the explosive Armstrong's mixture which ignites due to the friction."

Looks like you can buy red phosphorous and potassium chlorate fairly easily. Or is STHF is already here raid you chemical supply house.

Makes me wonder what happens if you mix these in large quantities......better leave that one alone...I like my fingers and not being in prison.

[JAB]

On 1/9/2017 at 3:33 PM, Dolomite_supafly said:

You can also open up the shot shell and pour the pellets out. Then heat them up with some candle wax and pour it back in. Makes a wax slug that falls apart as soon as it hits something. A few on here have seen me do it at the range. I shot a cardboard box and had a 3/4" hole on one side and a much bigger hole on the other. It doesn't work to just pour wax over the shot, it cools too quickly.

Read up on cut shells as well, they work too but if they fall apart and you try to unload the gun it will lock it up with the smaller shot.

I know a guy who would reload primers using child's caps. He would pry out the anvil then use a flattened nail to iron out the primer cup. He would then put the child's cap inside primer with the anvil. He would then slowly seat the primer. He said it worked most of the time but not all of the time.

Availability of reloading components will also come into play. If you have that weird, oddball caliber eventually you will run out of brass to reload. Pick the most common caliber in your area. If you live in a very rural area it might better serve you to have a 30-30 or 30-06 because a lot of houses have one of those sitting in a corner with a box of ammunition.

And in case anyone doesn't know they make solid brass shot shells. In a end of the world scenario they would last a lot longer.

I mentioned 'wax slugs' in passing in a previous post but have never tried them.  Most reports about them I have read advise to only use them in single shot, break action shotguns but if they are made right I don't see - from a theoretical standpoint - why they wouldn't cycle just fine in a pump.  I have only watched YouTube videos of people using them, however, and haven't tried them myself, yet.  Having actually used them, what is your opinion on that?  I have also seen videos of people using cut shells.  From the results on target they were getting I think that either would be 'effective' if push came to shove.  I probably would be a bit hesitant to use cut shells in anything but a single unless I had no, other option but that is just me.

Edited January 11, 2017 by JAB

[Dolomite_supafly]

They are pretty inconsistent as far as accuracy. They will hit a  silouette at 15 yards. They wouldnt hit within 10' at 100. 

[Jonathan N. Shooter Ready]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount the viability of the lowly .22lr. Chechen snipers used them to great effect against the Russians inside of urban/suburban areas. So much so that the Russians developed their own .22lr sniper rifle the SV-99. Israelis also used a suppressed 10/22 for a time. It is my understanding though they had intended to use it as a non-lethal deterrent and to disperse crowds/ rioters by shooting lead instigators in the legs and groin which inadvertently resulted in many deaths. 

 

Not saying all the guns should be .22lr... but several of them thrown in the mix is viable option. If nothing else they can be used in the same concept as the Liberator pistols were we dropped in France in WWII.  

[Ronald_55]

35 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

They are pretty inconsistent as far as accuracy. They will hit a  silouette at 15 yards. They wouldnt hit within 10' at 100. 

I might choose to load they shotshell back with a stack of washers or something else instead of the wax slug with that being the case. Of course the exact load would depend on its accuracy too. 

I think kind like the old cannon guys in a castle under siege. When they ran out of ammo they stuffed anything hard or sharp in there. Rocks, ham bones, broken swords, broken pottery... lol

[Ronald_55]

4 minutes ago, zombie jonathan said:

I wouldn't be too quick to discount the viability of the lowly .22lr. Chechen snipers used them to great effect against the Russians inside of urban/suburban areas. So much so that the Russians developed their own .22lr sniper rifle the SV-99. Israelis also used a suppressed 10/22 for a time. It is my understanding though they had intended to use it as a non-lethal deterrent and to disperse crowds/ rioters by shooting lead instigators in the legs and groin which inadvertently resulted in many deaths. 

 

Not saying all the guns should be .22lr... but several of them thrown in the mix is viable option. If nothing else they can be used in the same concept as the Liberator pistols were we dropped in France in WWII.  

No one is discounting them, but reloading the ammo is barely possible. At some point you will run out. At least with a centerfire, you can improvise reloading the primers and cartridges. Same for shotguns.

I have my share of .22s and love them, but if you are planning for the long haul, you have to plan on running out of rimfire ammo at some point. 

[Jonathan N. Shooter Ready]

 

http://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/collections/all

 

[Ronald_55]

5 minutes ago, zombie jonathan said:

 

http://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/collections/all

 

ZJ,

I have seen these. They have only shown up in the last few years. Mainly due to the .22lr drought. I did not say impossible to reload, I said barely possible. It can be done, but is a lot harder than centerfire ammo. 

You can reload a shotgun shell primer with crushed match heads, use black powder for the propellant, a piece of cardboard for a wad, and lots of stuff for projectiles. Home brewing the primer paste for Rimfire from scratch has to be harder.

[Dolomite_supafly]

At anything beyond probably 10 yards a stack of loose washers is probably less lethal. I have shot them before and they just go all over the place and make all kinds of noise as they do, definitely not even close to being ideal They are definitely worse than any wax slug I have ever shot. If I want to shoot slugs I buy the CHEAP Federal bulk pack. Federal is the easiest to get a slug into the case and have it stay. The rest either have wads that prevent the use of a slug or the slug just drops out.  I would cut the tops off the cheap .25 shot shells and pour the lead into my pot. I melt the shot down then use the lead to make slugs. I would pull the wad out far enough so the slug will kind of get locked in by the wad when you push it back in. I made a crimping tool to round over the edge of the case to hold the slug in place.

I don't believe most matches you are going to find are shock sensitive like a primer needs to be. Children's caps, like in the 8 round rings, are shock sensitive and they do work but nothing will be as reliable as a real primer.

For taking small game it is hard to beat a pellet rifle. You can make a mold that you can swage pellets out of using a hammer or vice. Not quick but it works. And in a end of times situation nothing says a human is around like a gunshot so being quiet is imperative to survival. I consider silencers a must have for when society collapses. If the HPA passes every gun I own will have a silencer.

 

[Jamie Jackson]

Reading the above discussion about making shotgun slugs reminded me a couple of articles I read via  Western Rifle Shooter's Association a few years back... the article's were entitled "Turning Ballistic Water into Wine" (1&2) and cover much of what Dolo mentioned. Good stuff to know!

The articles were a bit more expansive in Chuck Brant's original blogspot, but these still have useful info imho. It looks like his included links are still functional as well.

http://chuckbrant.com/turning-ballistic-water-into-wine-2/

http://chuckbrant.com/more-turning-ballistic-water-into-wine/

 

Western Rifle link below...worth subscribing to if you have an interest:

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by prag

[Spiffy]

On 12/9/2016 at 0:23 PM, monkeylizard said:

Mosin 91/30s are going for around 200 these days. I would skip that and look at new-production bolt-action rifles in a common cartridge like .308. I think some of those can be had for around $250-$300. Same bolt-action benefits/limitations as a Mosin, but available in new production and w/o the oddball ammunition factor. If Trump drops the import ban on goodies from Mother Russia, Mosins might make sense again for folks who want to stockpile them.

The cheap shotgun is actually a decent choice for that purpose, but like you said, range becomes a factor. Slugs would help, but not as much as a real centerfire rifle.

Stepping up to semi-auto, SKS rifles run about 400-450+, with beat up Norincos fetching north of $300. At that price you may as well get in on the flood of cheap ARs that are on the market now. AKs are today's AR of yesterday with WASR 10s fetching $650 while entry ARs are $450'ish. It's madness!

 

I'd take it a step further and get a bunch of mossberg MVPs.....they take AR mags.

Then again you can build ARs now for stupid cheap so you could have a bunch of PSA parted up ARs. I think if you're building an "army" you'll want everyone shooting at least the same mags and ammo. 

[Ronald_55]

4 minutes ago, Spiffy said:

I'd take it a step further and get a bunch of mossberg MVPs.....they take AR mags.

Then again you can build ARs now for stupid cheap so you could have a bunch of PSA parted up ARs. I think if you're building an "army" you'll want everyone shooting at least the same mags and ammo. 

Yeah at this point being able to buy ARs on sale for $369 sometimes makes it a no brainer.

[bersaguy]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:35 PM, zombie jonathan said:

I wouldn't be too quick to discount the viability of the lowly .22lr. Chechen snipers used them to great effect against the Russians inside of urban/suburban areas. So much so that the Russians developed their own .22lr sniper rifle the SV-99. Israelis also used a suppressed 10/22 for a time. It is my understanding though they had intended to use it as a non-lethal deterrent and to disperse crowds/ rioters by shooting lead instigators in the legs and groin which inadvertently resulted in many deaths. 

 

Not saying all the guns should be .22lr... but several of them thrown in the mix is viable option. If nothing else they can be used in the same concept as the Liberator pistols were we dropped in France in WWII.  

I think to many folks do under estimate the 22 Lr when they talk about guns for self defense and a gun for other uses. back when I was a kid growing up on the farm/ranch I would go squirrel with friends on the back of the farm and I know of many times we would end up fielded dressing a buck that one of my friends bagged with a 22 rifle. I actaully bagged an 8 point buck with one during a squirrel hunt. I have never been 1 to discount what a 22lr can do and never will................jmho

[Ronald_55]

2 hours ago, bersaguy said:

I think to many folks do under estimate the 22 Lr when they talk about guns for self defense and a gun for other uses. back when I was a kid growing up on the farm/ranch I would go squirrel with friends on the back of the farm and I know of many times we would end up fielded dressing a buck that one of my friends bagged with a 22 rifle. I actaully bagged an 8 point buck with one during a squirrel hunt. I have never been 1 to discount what a 22lr can do and never will................jmho

I think .22's have a good place and can be used effectively by experienced users. 2 places they suffer are reloadability (I know there is a kit, still not 100% viable) and inexperienced use. Inexperienced or light recreational shooters lack the experience to make the fatal shots. Given a larger caliber/more powerful round they can make fatal shots with less precision. This is important in either feeding you or fending off bad guys.

I too have seen big game taken with the .22 and even seen long barrel pistols being used. It just requires skill and practice.

[bersaguy]

4 hours ago, Ronald_55 said:

I think .22's have a good place and can be used effectively by experienced users. 2 places they suffer are reloadability (I know there is a kit, still not 100% viable) and inexperienced use. Inexperienced or light recreational shooters lack the experience to make the fatal shots. Given a larger caliber/more powerful round they can make fatal shots with less precision. This is important in either feeding you or fending off bad guys.

I too have seen big game taken with the .22 and even seen long barrel pistols being used. It just requires skill and practice.

I agree that knowing what a 22lr is capable of is as important as most anything about them. I have one 22 rifle that I can drive thumb tacks with consistantly and it gets sighted in about twice a month to make sure it is still dead on. As far as reloading, I think it would not be necessary in my case because I probably have enough to shoot anything and everything I would need to shoot and still have plenty left over. I think last look I have 1 large ammo safe completely full of nothing except 22 lr and part of another and still buying every chance I get to fill the second one.

Edited July 1, 2017 by bersaguy

[Ronald_55]

It has been forever since I counted my .22lr. When things were hard to find I bought thousands of rounds every time I saw it at a decent price. As luck would have it, I bought a Model 60 a while before all of it went away. I was buying 500 thunderbolt a few times a week to stock up. I found one of those 1400 round Golden bullet buckets a while back at pre-panic prices. I think I have enough to get the job done. I think Bersaguy knows from experience that I hoard lots of ammo. Lol

Edited July 2, 2017 by Ronald_55
Ooops

[hipower]

5 hours ago, bersaguy said:

I agree that knowing what a 22lr is capable of is as important as most anything about them. I have one 22 rifle that I can drive thumb tacks with consistantly and it gets sighted in about twice a month to make sure it is still dead on. As far as reloading, I think it would not be necessary in my case because I probably have enough to shoot anything and everything I would need to shoot and still have plenty left over. I think last look I have 1 large ammo safe completely full of nothing except 22 lr and part of another and still buying every chance I get to fill the second one.

Suddenly, I don't feel so excited by the amount of 22 I've stored.

[Ronald_55]

1 hour ago, hipower said:

Suddenly, I don't feel so excited by the amount of 22 I've stored.

It just sets you a goal to shoot for. 

[Spiffy]

13 hours ago, bersaguy said:

I agree that knowing what a 22lr is capable of is as important as most anything about them. I have one 22 rifle that I can drive thumb tacks with consistantly and it gets sighted in about twice a month to make sure it is still dead on. As far as reloading, I think it would not be necessary in my case because I probably have enough to shoot anything and everything I would need to shoot and still have plenty left over. I think last look I have 1 large ammo safe completely full of nothing except 22 lr and part of another and still buying every chance I get to fill the second one.

 

I thought you were supposed to build a fort with the boxes of 22 ammo......

[Ronald_55]

34 minutes ago, Spiffy said:

 

I thought you were supposed to build a fort with the boxes of 22 ammo......

Nope, you are confusing .22lr and .223.

[Billrube]

Well, I don't know about arming strangers....in a SHTF there is inherent danger in that. However it would be prudent to have enough like weapons to arm immediate family with. In a real crisis where you may have to defend your self the typical hodge-podge of guns at the house would not mount a very good defense. 

In laws may have a couple of .22s and 2 boxes of ammo are "a whole lot of bullets". Nephew may have a couple of hunting rifles of different calibers and nothing semi-auto. 

You can't lay down a volume of fire with a bolt action .270. 

I've never been a reloader but my focus has always been on milsurp stuff so the ammo (until recently) has always been cheap. My rule of thumb has been when you shoot 500 rds of anything, replace it with a thousand rds so you are always building stock. Truthfully, my little stash is built more out of a fear of an import ban or ammo purchase restrictions  than necessarily SHTF. However, in either case it pays to have some stock. 

At the time I started heavily into the surplus stuff you could buy ammo way cheaper than you could reload. 

SKSs and AKs are ideal SHTF rifles (IMO) because (1) they work and (2) you have to put serious effort into making them not work (3) an illiterate peasant can operate and maintain them (4) accuracy is acceptable (5) the intermediate range .30 caliber bullet will do some damage (6) same caliber 

Now, pricewise as it has been pointed out ARs are now cheaper than AKs but everything I have been told ARs are much more picky that AKs as far as ammo. AKs are built to eat and spit any kind of ammo in the correct caliber. Steel case, corroded steel case, rusty steel case, brass case, it don't matter. 

Rifles need to share common ammo and magazines....same for pistols....having the exact same models and set ups allows for parts exchange in the event of failures.

I pick up .22LR when I can when it's a screaming deal.

12ga stuff - I've got a load of 00 buck. I pick up a box of 1350fps target loads for the AK 12's every trip to walmart. It cycles without issues and 6 and 7 shot is devastating at home defense ranges. 

 

 

[bersaguy]

10 hours ago, hipower said:

Suddenly, I don't feel so excited by the amount of 22 I've stored.

I think I still have that I got from you if I am not mistaken............LMAO

[Ronald_55]

Loading up for a night on the town...or at least how I would imagine it if I ever got out

[bersaguy]

2 minutes ago, Ronald_55 said:

Loading up for a night on the town...or at least how I would imagine it if I ever got out

Might need that much if town was coming to you but don't think you would need that much to go to town unless your a JOHN WICK type............lol

[hipower]

31 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I think I still have that I got from you if I am not mistaken............LMAO

That sure wasn't much. Just a little 22mag. It's not a drop in the bucket to a safe full of 22. lol

I have over the years since then accumulated a bit more of that 22 mag ammo though. And seems that I haven't shot any since then. Guess it's time to take the PMR 30 out again.

Edited July 2, 2017 by hipower