Private Seller Help

[FortKnox]

OK I was just at TN Gun Country when I started talking to this nice, young couple.

He's in the military and was looking for a handgun for home defense and to eventually carry. Only problem is he's 19.

The guy at the counter said it's illegal to sell a handgun to someone under 21 unless it's gifted or sold to them from an immediate family member. But, I've read on some webpages that an 18 to 20 year old can buy a handgun from a private sell and keep it in the house. So, which is it?

Cause they seem like a nice couple and I have a handgun or two I'd be willing to sell them.

Oh and get this, he's from outside of San Diego and she was from Boston, so they know next to nothing about guns.

Geez I wonder why? :-P

 

[DaveTN]

Federal law requires a person to be 21 to buy a handgun from an FFL. Tennessee state law only requires they be 18. So an FFL can’t transfer a handgun to an 18 year old, but you can sell them one on a private sale if they are a Tennessee resident.

[TNman207]

TN law says 18 in minimum age. (check the link)

http://smartgunlaws.org/minimum-age-to-purchase-possess-firearms-in-tennessee/

[Oh Shoot]

13 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Federal law requires a person to be 21 to buy a handgun from an FFL. Tennessee state law only requires they be 18. So an FFL can’t transfer a handgun to an 18 year old, but you can sell them one on a private sale if they are a Tennessee resident.

The further complication of that for service people, is that full time duty assignment counts same as state of permanent residence of record under federal law to an FFL.

But I personally would be pretty leery about personally selling any firearm to a "guy from San Diego", regardless of where he (says he) is stationed. Even with some military paperwork to show, that's just a complicated area I wouldn't want to get into as a private seller.

- OS

Edited December 4, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

oops, meant to edit not quote myself

Edited December 4, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Raoul]

Yeah sounds like a really good way to screw up your life.

[Oh Shoot]

3 minutes ago, Raoul said:

Yeah sounds like a really good way to screw up your life.

And really, you'd have to look closely at 18 US 922, but seems like that "duty station" exception may well ONLY apply to FFLs, and not private individuals.

- OS

Edited December 4, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Raoul]

Still, too many questions...

 

[Wingshooter]

Sounds like too many variables. I wouldn't accept the liability.

[Randall53]

I've seen first hand in my life how the term "no good deed goes unpunished" is more than just a saying.......more times than I like to remember.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Randall53

[Papajon]

"...but you can sell them one on a private sale if they are a Tennessee resident."

"The further complication of that for service people, is that full time duty assignment counts same as state of permanent residence of record under federal law to an FFL."

I could be wrong but aren't soldiers assigned to Ft. Campbell residents of Kentucky and not Tennessee?

[monkeylizard]

For Form 4473 purposes, they're both, Ft. Campbell soldiers can buy from FFLs in either state.

Edited December 5, 2016 by monkeylizard
Fixing a type-o

[Oh Shoot]

45 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

For Form 4473 purposes, they're both, Ft. Campbell soldiers can but from FFLs in either state.

I looked at the federal laws, and the military thing isn't limited to just FFLs. Pretty simple statement in the definitions 18US921 that apply to 18US922 and ongoing:

"For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located."

But I myself still wouldn't likely sell to him myself.

- OS

 

[monkeylizard]

I wasn't saying they're residents of both only for Form 4473 purchases, just that they are residents of both for 4473. I wouldn't know where to begin to find out residency requirements for any other purpose.

[Omega]

12 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

I wasn't saying they're residents of both only for Form 4473 purchases, just that they are residents of both for 4473. I wouldn't know where to begin to find out residency requirements for any other purpose.

For many legal purposes they can be residents of either KY or TN, but most will claim the state they reside in.  I always claimed TN due to my address, but have purchased guns on both sides of the state line.  Same with vehicles, both TN and KY can sell vehicles to military members and give the sales tax exemption.  You just need your orders assigning you to Ft Campbell and your military Id to get the benefit.  I would be comfortable doing the same thing as long as I can verify both those documents, that would be enough due diligence for me.

[graycrait]

As a retired Army guy, former retail gun seller and quite a few times private seller & trader - I wouldn't sell this young man a handgun. Unless he is a resident of TN selling him a handgun is not legal.   Even if he were 21 I would want to see his Permanent Change of Station orders and his military ID. Some retailers might require some sort of government proof of residency in either KY or Tn to "back up" the ID and orders.  It is the sellers prerogative if they want more than the PCS orders and Mil ID. Some PCS orders might be quite old depending on the specialty and unit assigned, while valid, might raise concern.  Sometimes soldiers have "valid" ID cards even though they have been discharged and no longer are assigned to FT Campbell (in this case).  I used to tell Ft Campbell service people if they plan on being in the area for a time and it doesn't impact their future plans just get a TN drivers licenses just in case they are out in the "hinterlands" of TN, away from Ft Campbell, and find a good deal on a firearm but the seller doesn't want to hear about military ID and PCS Orders, the seller may want TN ID - period.   

Then there are just practical reasons when selling a handgun to a young soldier.  A short list that comes to mind I have seen over and over:  break-in theft after showing handgun at a party at the residence; divorce and wife either sells or takes firearm; wants something else and gun is easy to sell; someone gets killed with the gun.  If the service person is less than 21 and does something in another state and their laws are different than TN laws... probably not an issue...but who needs the hassles.  I prefer to see a valid TN HCP when selling/trading or at least a TN DL with age 21 or older, generally a lot older.  If a 19 yr old service person is serious about needing a firearm for home defense they can legally and easily get a cheap 12 ga. shotgun.

Edited December 5, 2016 by graycrait

[TNWNGR]

5 hours ago, graycrait said:

As a retired Army guy, former retail gun seller and quite a few times private seller & trader - I wouldn't sell this young man a handgun. Unless he is a resident of TN selling him a handgun is not legal.   Even if he were 21 I would want to see his Permanent Change of Station orders and his military ID. Some retailers might require some sort of government proof of residency in either KY or Tn to "back up" the ID and orders.  It is the sellers prerogative if they want more than the PCS orders and Mil ID. Some PCS orders might be quite old depending on the specialty and unit assigned, while valid, might raise concern.  Sometimes soldiers have "valid" ID cards even though they have been discharged and no longer are assigned to FT Campbell (in this case).  I used to tell Ft Campbell service people if they plan on being in the area for a time and it doesn't impact their future plans just get a TN drivers licenses just in case they are out in the "hinterlands" of TN, away from Ft Campbell, and find a good deal on a firearm but the seller doesn't want to hear about military ID and PCS Orders, the seller may want TN ID - period.   

Then there are just practical reasons when selling a handgun to a young soldier.  A short list that comes to mind I have seen over and over:  break-in theft after showing handgun at a party at the residence; divorce and wife either sells or takes firearm; wants something else and gun is easy to sell; someone gets killed with the gun.  If the service person is less than 21 and does something in another state and their laws are different than TN laws... probably not an issue...but who needs the hassles.  I prefer to see a valid TN HCP when selling/trading or at least a TN DL with age 21 or older, generally a lot older.  If a 19 yr old service person is serious about needing a firearm for home defense they can legally and easily get a cheap 12 ga. shotgun.

I'm in agreement with graycrait on this, it's just to risky a proposition. When someone in the above mentioned couples age group asked me for firearms advice I always recommended a pump shotgun. Now though there are other options such as the Kel-Tech Sub2000 or a Highpoint Arms Carbine.

 

[Oh Shoot]

7 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

I wasn't saying they're residents of both only for Form 4473 purchases, just that they are residents of both for 4473. I wouldn't know where to begin to find out residency requirements for any other purpose.

I was just posting that as informational in general. I couldn't remember if the military thing was in regard to FFLs only or not, and it's not.

Prob is, that as a private seller, once you know that there's some question about the buyer's legal state(s) of residence is that you don't really have a rock solid way to verify it. I wouldn't know what paperwork for sure constitutes a legally valid "permanent duty station" and all that, whereas an FFL runs it through the system and either gets an approval or he doesn't.

And of course, transferring the handgun through an FFL isn't an option in this case, the buyer being under 21.

- OS

[Omega]

1 minute ago, Oh Shoot said:

I was just posting that as informational in general. I couldn't remember if the military thing was in regard to FFLs only or not, and it's not.

Prob is, that as a private seller, once you know that there's some question about the buyer's legal state(s) of residence is that you don't really have a rock solid way to verify it. I wouldn't know what paperwork for sure constitutes a legally valid "permanent duty station" and all that, whereas an FFL runs it through the system and either gets an approval or he doesn't.

And of course, transferring the handgun through an FFL isn't an option in this case, the buyer being under 21.

- OS

I do have a way to verify current duty station, but even if it were not the case I would take a set of orders and a CAC card as proof.  At 19-20, the chances of them being transferred to another duty station is slim.  Average duty at one station is three years, and since this is not a basic training base they would not be transient awaiting their next duty station.  As far as I'm concerned, I would have no reason to suspect that their orders were not good, just as I take for granted that a CCW permit is still good even if it was issued years before.

 

As an aside, I wonder how an FFL treats stripped lowers?  Since they are neither a rifle or a gun at that point, can an 18YO purchase one?

[Oh Shoot]

4 hours ago, Omega said:

As an aside, I wonder how an FFL treats stripped lowers?  Since they are neither a rifle or a gun at that point, can an 18YO purchase one?

No. Because only "rifles" and "shotguns" are specifically allowed under the federal statute to be sold to 18 year olds and/or to out of state residents by FFLs. Same as with handgun, must be 21 to receive an "other firearm" and only receive in state of residence. Same with a PGO "shotgun", which isn't really a "shotgun", but also "other firearm".

- OS

Edited December 6, 2016 by Oh Shoot