Confused about TN gun climate.

[Guest BHG123]

I moved here from PA back in May.  I thought that gun stuff would be so much easier and relaxed in the South, but it appears that is not always the case.  In PA, it took me 20 minutes and $20 to get a CC permit to Conceal Carry.  I did not need a permit to Open Carry in PA.  Here, it took about a month, $200 and a set of fingerprints to be able to do BOTH CC and OC.

It also appears that ranges seem to have great difficulties.  They pass hand to hand or go out of business, or in the case of some Counties, they simply will not allow any more ranges even after the once that are currently there, fold.  I am not sure why, if they are receiving pressure, threats, high insurance or what?

I detect some hostility from time to time against the NRA.  I am not sure why, and it concerns me since I am an NRA Certified Instructor.  My main goal is to promote guns, safety and sports to the community, to keep support for guns alive and well both now and in the future.

However, it appears that the State of Tennessee has chosen to follow an NRA model for their range requirements and for the Carry Handgun course training requirements.  Is this why there are some bad feelings against the NRA, because, there were more freedoms before Tennessee started to crack down on handgun laws AND chose to model after the NRA specs?

I am wondering if there is an imbalance because of the high crime in western TN, Memphis in particular.  Is that what seems to be driving the gun related restrictions I have seen since relocating to TN?

There may be no clear answer, but these are my observations and I am wondering if I am missing something here.

 

[Ronald_55]

3 minutes ago, BHG123 said:

I moved here from PA back in May.  I thought that gun stuff would be so much easier and relaxed in the South, but it appears that is not always the case.  In PA, it took me 20 minutes and $20 to get a CC permit to Conceal Carry.  I did not need a permit to Open Carry in PA.  Here, it took about a month, $200 and a set of fingerprints to be able to do BOTH CC and OC.

It also appears that ranges seem to have great difficulties.  They pass hand to hand or go out of business, or in the case of some Counties, they simply will not allow any more ranges even after the once that are currently there, fold.  I am not sure why, if they are receiving pressure, threats, high insurance or what?

I detect some hostility from time to time against the NRA.  I am not sure why, and it concerns me since I am an NRA Certified Instructor.  My main goal is to promote guns, safety and sports to the community, to keep support for guns alive and well both now and in the future.

However, it appears that the State of Tennessee has chosen to follow an NRA model for their range requirements and for the Carry Handgun course training requirements.  Is this why there are some bad feelings against the NRA, because, there were more freedoms before Tennessee started to crack down on handgun laws AND chose to model after the NRA specs?

I am wondering if there is an imbalance because of the high crime in western TN, Memphis in particular.  Is that what seems to be driving the gun related restrictions I have seen since relocating to TN?

There may be no clear answer, but these are my observations and I am wondering if I am missing something here.

 

One thing about ranges in my area is that most everyone has somewhere the can shoot free. Either the back yard, 'the back 40', or just a friend's place. Even the national forest has an outdoor range that is $3 a day for a lane. You can shoot a .50 there if you want. The ranges around get pressure from people protesting noise (even for indoor ones) and the whole 'I don't want it in my neighborhood' attitude. Really it ends up being a few sour grapes that ruin it all for everyone.

Because TN is such a big diverse state, laws that make a little sense in Nashville or Memphis end up getting passed and enforced in small town TN. Even if they really don't apply.

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, BHG123 said:

.... Is this why there are some bad feelings against the NRA, because, there were more freedoms before Tennessee started to crack down on handgun laws AND chose to model after the NRA specs?

Well, that part is certainly not true as far as possession/carry. Before the HCP process, for about 25 years there was no legal way short of being a crony "honorary deputy" for the average joe to legally possess a firearm even in his  vehicle, let alone on the person in general public. So that has actually come a long way toward firearm freedom, with some significant recent changes thrown in even for non-permit holders.

But one thing, it was looser until sometime in the 70's regarding guns in autos, forget which year, but the days of legally having the rifle or shotgun in the back window did indeed go away.

As far as places to shoot, growing up, I don't think "official" ones of any kind were any more prevalent. The difference is that back then we simply weren't so crowded a state, and there was a bigger choice of "unofficial" places to shoot, either city/county/state unimproved land where they didn't really care, and also the fact the most everybody knew somebody with private land who didn't care either.

Now, the larger expanses of private land are in fewer hands, and of course city/county lands are mostly "full" of something. There's a lot less empty "there" anywhere. I think you are right about state lands however, they have clamped down on that a lot more, only allowing it at their dedicated ranges.

But yeah, we are far from deserving the "Patron State of Shooting Stuff" moniker anymore in that particular regard. The folks who can shoot out west on the vast tracks of federal land have more of a claim to that IMHO.

- OS

Edited December 4, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[NextExit]

53 minutes ago, BHG123 said:

I thought that gun stuff would be so much easier and relaxed in the South, but it appears that is not always the case. 

Don't know about PA but as a New Yorker, I can honestly say it is SO much easier and relaxed here.   

[300winmag]

For a state in this part of the country, carry laws really did stink here until a few years ago when it became legal to carry in places that serve alcohol and also some of the local parks.  If you really wanted to follow the law and have any type of social/business life, you had to always leave your gun in the car when you went out to eat at a decent restaurant.  I had heard that people say over ten years ago could not even have a gun in their vehicle at a liquor store or restaurant WITH a permit!  Also, you could not even have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle in this state, again even with a permit.  That was finally changed a couple of years ago so that people without permits can have loaded long guns or handguns in vehicles.

Pretty much every state around Tennessee has some form of legal loaded vehicle carry without a permit and also it is legal to open carry in most of the surrounding states without permits.  Three have constitutional concealed carry.  Long gun carry in or out of vehicles in most of the surrounding states again has always been legal.

I personally think for the training requirements and the cost of getting a permit here the restrictions are a joke again compared to surrounding states.  You can get an enhanced permit in Mississippi (same training we have in TN) and carry legally virtually anywhere including schools.  Alabama (you literally pay money and in some counties issued permits on spot after background check) and Missouri you can also carry pretty much anywhere (including schools and colleges) without fear of felony charges if you have a permit.  I know in KY and VA you can also legally carry on college property with a permit.  Our 'no gun' signs that we can get fined for are another joke that should have been eliminated by our 'pro gun' legislature. 

[btq96r]

8 hours ago, BHG123 said:

In PA, it took me 20 minutes and $20 to get a CC permit to Conceal Carry.  I did not need a permit to Open Carry in PA.  Here, it took about a month, $200 and a set of fingerprints to be able to do BOTH CC and OC.

Well, since Tennessee doesn't have an income tax, the state looks to pinch money any which way it can to fund daily operations.  We've debated a bit how much the actual process of processing HCP applications is on the state since they use existing facilities and workers at the DMV and TBI...but it is what it is.

 

8 hours ago, BHG123 said:

It also appears that ranges seem to have great difficulties.  They pass hand to hand or go out of business, or in the case of some Counties, they simply will not allow any more ranges even after the once that are currently there, fold.  I am not sure why, if they are receiving pressure, threats, high insurance or what?

I'm going to guess your location has more to do with this than anything.  From my location in Murfreesboro, I have access at least a two indoor pistol ranges, and four rifle ranges (three of which I know have a pistol area) within an hours drive.  That's just off the top of my head, so I may even be forgetting a few more.  Compare that to your location, where there isn't a lot of population density win driving distance to support a bustling firearms range selection.  You're also in the "touristy area" so that's not helping things when it comes to local ordinances and what not.

 

8 hours ago, BHG123 said:

I detect some hostility from time to time against the NRA.  I am not sure why, and it concerns me since I am an NRA Certified Instructor.  My main goal is to promote guns, safety and sports to the community, to keep support for guns alive and well both now and in the future.

However, it appears that the State of Tennessee has chosen to follow an NRA model for their range requirements and for the Carry Handgun course training requirements.  Is this why there are some bad feelings against the NRA, because, there were more freedoms before Tennessee started to crack down on handgun laws AND chose to model after the NRA specs?

Well, the NRA rep to our state is a joke, and the only attention they really pay to Tennessee is when they brought the annual convention to Nashville, and when they want money.  While I'm sure plenty of us love the firearms safety and promotion of the cause, the rest is off-putting to me at least. 

The NRA range requirements is just using a ready made format, IMO. 

 

8 hours ago, BHG123 said:

I am wondering if there is an imbalance because of the high crime in western TN, Memphis in particular.  Is that what seems to be driving the gun related restrictions I have seen since relocating to TN?

No, it's just that our Republican government is the capital R type of Republican that loves to talk a good game while making sure the plebs don't get too much freedom to turn against them.  I think with a few exceptions we're at a decent medium on the macro scale, but it's all situation and location dependent. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by btq96r

[runco]

You said you live in Wears Valley (Sevier County), I believe Sevier County is one of the few counties in the state that has a county wide building ordinance to control the building codes, probably why one just simply can't build a rifle range everywhere or even in a cow pasture.  I also believe due to your location, not much outdoor rifle ranges exists in East Tennessee without at lest an hour drive somewhere.   As far as the NRA, likely in the valley, you are surrounding more by non-native valley goers vs. native.  Some of the more recent folk that moved into the valley have brought with them their native thinking.

As I near the 1/2 century mark, and being both a lifelong Tennessee resident and a life long gun nut from an early single digit age, to see how Tennessee has changed on guns vs. the nation as a whole, is remarkable.  Yes, Tennessee may charge for a concealed carry, and it may take a little red tape (finger prints, class, qualifying) to get a permit, its okay in my book considering for many years like others have said you could not even have a gun in your vehicle not to mention on your person without being a special deputy.  You should have been in mid 90s during the the first wave to receive the concealed carry permit.  When Concealed carry first began back in the mid 90s, no one cared about the cost and hoops to jump through, we were just happy to have the ability.  I personally was in the first group that took the classes, it took >6 mos to get the permit due to the log jam of the number of applicants.  BTW, back then the Brady Bill was in full effect, Assault Weapons were in full effect, and Al Gore was still tinkering with the idea of a internet. 

Welcome to Tennessee, and also as a former fellow Sevier Countian for 30+ years, as long as you check your Yankee ideas & expectations both good and bad at the state border, you will do just fine here in Tennessee.  BTW, assume you like the no income tax, cheap property tax on real property, and cheap car tags. 

[Guest BHG123]

12 hours ago, Ronald_55 said:

One thing about ranges in my area is that most everyone has somewhere the can shoot free. Either the back yard, 'the back 40', or just a friend's place. Even the national forest has an outdoor range that is $3 a day for a lane. You can shoot a .50 there if you want. The ranges around get pressure from people protesting noise (even for indoor ones) and the whole 'I don't want it in my neighborhood' attitude. Really it ends up being a few sour grapes that ruin it all for everyone.

Do you know if there is a public outdoors range anywhere in Sevier County or even Knox for that matter?

11 hours ago, NextExit said:

Don't know about PA but as a New Yorker, I can honestly say it is SO much easier and relaxed here.   

I have lived a lot of places, including upstate NY, CO, NJ, PA and FL.  I open carried daily in rural CO, and felt like I was going to jail for even thinking about owning a gun in NJ.  PA is the most recent place I lived, and I am still amazed at what a really gun friendly state it is being so far north.  And conversely, I am amazed about how restrictive TN is.  And the TN cost...

That being said, open carrying in PA would have drawn more nasty looks than here in TN.  It almost seems to be a difference in laws more than people.  It is just interesting, not better or worse.

6 hours ago, 300winmag said:

For a state in this part of the country, carry laws really did stink here until a few years ago when it became legal to carry in places that serve alcohol and also some of the local parks.  If you really wanted to follow the law and have any type of social/business life, you had to always leave your gun in the car when you went out to eat at a decent restaurant.  I had heard that people say over ten years ago could not even have a gun in their vehicle at a liquor store or restaurant WITH a permit!  Also, you could not even have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle in this state, again even with a permit.  That was finally changed a couple of years ago so that people without permits can have loaded long guns or handguns in vehicles.

Pretty much every state around Tennessee has some form of legal loaded vehicle carry without a permit and also it is legal to open carry in most of the surrounding states without permits.  Three have constitutional concealed carry.  Long gun carry in or out of vehicles in most of the surrounding states again has always been legal.

I personally think for the training requirements and the cost of getting a permit here the restrictions are a joke again compared to surrounding states.  You can get an enhanced permit in Mississippi (same training we have in TN) and carry legally virtually anywhere including schools.  Alabama (you literally pay money and in some counties issued permits on spot after background check) and Missouri you can also carry pretty much anywhere (including schools and colleges) without fear of felony charges if you have a permit.  I know in KY and VA you can also legally carry on college property with a permit.  Our 'no gun' signs that we can get fined for are another joke that should have been eliminated by our 'pro gun' legislature. 

I still wonder why when TN is surrounded by places like KY and AL, it is so much more restrictive than they are.

1 hour ago, runco said:

As far as the NRA, likely in the valley, you are surrounding more by non-native valley goers vs. native.  Some of the more recent folk that moved into the valley have brought with them their native thinking.

As I near the 1/2 century mark, and being both a lifelong Tennessee resident and a life long gun nut from an early single digit age, to see how Tennessee has changed on guns vs. the nation as a whole, is remarkable.  Yes, Tennessee may charge for a concealed carry, and it may take a little red tape (finger prints, class, qualifying) to get a permit, its okay in my book considering for many years like others have said you could not even have a gun in your vehicle not to mention on your person without being a special deputy.  You should have been in mid 90s during the the first wave to receive the concealed carry permit.  When Concealed carry first began back in the mid 90s, no one cared about the cost and hoops to jump through, we were just happy to have the ability.  I personally was in the first group that took the classes, it took >6 mos to get the permit due to the log jam of the number of applicants.  BTW, back then the Brady Bill was in full effect, Assault Weapons were in full effect, and Al Gore was still tinkering with the idea of a internet. 

Welcome to Tennessee, and also as a former fellow Sevier Countian for 30+ years, as long as you check your Yankee ideas & expectations both good and bad at the state border, you will do just fine here in Tennessee.  BTW, assume you like the no income tax, cheap property tax on real property, and cheap car tags. 

The negativity I caught about the NRA, was more from locals at gun shows and ranges, not from a tourist on the street.  That is the confusing part for me.

I can understand how everyone in TN was happy to get the ability to carry, no matter how many loops they had to jump through, but so would someone from DC, NY, IL, MD or NJ if they had the same opportunity tomorrow.  Somehow, I just did not see Tennessee in the same "gun ranks" as those states, at any point in recent history. 

The reason I created this post in the first place, was in hopes to be able to successfully continue to support and promote gun ownership, sporting, young, old, women, children, everyone, as an Instructor.  The more I know about the challenges, here in TN, the better plan I can come up with to support that objective, so all information is welcome!

Edited December 4, 2016 by BHG123

[peejman]

John Sevier range is in Knox county. 

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/john-sevier-hunter-education-center

 

[NextExit]

1 hour ago, BHG123 said:

I still wonder why when TN is surrounded by places like KY and AL, it is so much more restrictive than they are.

And I've never figured out why Vermont, the bluest of blue states, has the most lax gun laws in the country.  But you don't see me living there just so I can brag about gun freedom. 

[Defender]

While we are not where we should be as regards carry laws, we not only have come a long way in a relatively short period of time, we are making progress, although perhaps not as fast as some of would wish.  Dont forget that we are also a State full of immigrants from other States, like California and New York. They often bring their values with them when they move here.  I like Constitutional carry, but failinmg that, I like the enhanced type as a second choice, with not many restrictions on where to carry.  I swear, here in Tennessee, one can get into serious trouble by accident, i.e. parks carry.  One never knows when and where a school uses a park.

[Ronald_55]

2 hours ago, BHG123 said:

Do you know if there is a public outdoors range anywhere in Sevier County or even Knox for that matter? 

Been a long time since I lived down there. Back then I had 13 acres to shoot on, so I never even thought about ranges.

I see this one in Oliver Springs. Never used it though.

http://www.windrockshootingrange.com

No idea if the fire hurt this one. never used it either.

www.gatlinburgsportsman.com

Online list. Not sure how up to date this is, but is all of TN. 

http://traderscreek.com/outdoors/tennessee-shooting-ranges-gun-clubs/

 

[Jamie Jackson]

I didn't bring this up because of the distance...but since you did,.. Windrock in Oliver Springs is a decent range run by good folks.

ORSA is also in Anderson County (Oak Ridge), probably about the same distance drive for you, insignificance difference really, and offers a variety of ranges and shooting competitions and activities. 

http://www.orsaonline.org/

[btq96r]

5 hours ago, BHG123 said:

PA is the most recent place I lived, and I am still amazed at what a really gun friendly state it is being so far north.

It's only northern in terms of geography.  The identity of PA is pretty rural outside of the cities.  James Carville once described it as Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh (when union workers helped keep the city strong for Democrats) in the west, and Alabama in the middle.  My father lives somewhat in between the center of the state and Philly...and that sentiment from Carville is spot on.

 

3 hours ago, NextExit said:

And I've never figured out why Vermont, the bluest of blue states, has the most lax gun laws in the country.

Because they have a mix independent/libertarian instead of straight D vs. R.  Also, New Hampshire has some very friendly gun laws, and I think Maine is coming around decently.  It's really a nice area to live, if a bit cold and snowy during the winter.  The Massachusetts and Connecticut legislatures give the region a bad rap. 

[Tenncvol]

First of all, glad to have another shooting enthusiast in Tennessee. My perception is TN is moving toward more firearm freedom but is not yet where we would like it. As a suggestion, contact your state senator and representative and share your information that civilized Pennsylvania allows more freedom than TN.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest BHG123]

23 minutes ago, Tenncvol said:

As a suggestion, contact your state senator and representative and share your information that civilized Pennsylvania allows more freedom than TN.
 

LOL, I never said anything about Pennsylvania being "civilized".

[JayC]

The problem with the NRA is a simple one...  They tend to negotiate our rights away, instead of taking a hard line against any new gun laws, and push for repealing gun laws on the books.  I'm a double lifetime member, my grandfather bought me a lifetime membership as a baby, and I purchased another life time membership as an adult.  But lets look at some greatest hits:

1. They helped craft the FOPA of 1984 which included the Hughes Amendment, when offered a veto they turned the veto down.  They promised to remove the Hughes Amendment in following years, and have made no attempts to.

2. The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, the helped craft the language of that law, instead of fighting it tooth and nail they compromised.

3. Heller v Washington DC, early on in the process the NRA tried to get the lawsuit dismissed because they didn't feel it was the 'right time' to challenge the no ownership laws in DC.

4. After Sandy Hook the NRA started to work with Senators on a new Assault Weapons Ban, only after this was leaked by Gun Owners of America did they have a 'change' of heart and stand firm against any new firearms legislation.

5. After the terrorist shootings in CA last year, the NRA approved language for a bill which would have allowed the justice department to ban a person on the no fly list from purchasing a gun.  There are 400,000+ people on the no fly list.  Including Ted Kennedy, Steve Hayes (Fox New contributor).  It took Steve Hayes 14 months to get himself off that list, and he's a well connected nationally know journalist.

Those are just some of the 'hits' on the NRA.  Every time they call seeking a donation, I send money to Gun Owners of America, because they don't mess around and compromise.

[Guest BHG123]

47 minutes ago, JayC said:

Those are just some of the 'hits' on the NRA.  Every time they call seeking a donation, I send money to Gun Owners of America, because they don't mess around and compromise.

I see what you are saying, I am not for compromise either but it seems the nature of politics in general.  I cannot condemn them, though, because they really are the biggest game in town with the financial ability to actually do something.  After all, what would gun laws be like today if there was no NRA?

Gun Owners Of America sounds like something I should look at.  I will do it when I have a few spare minutes. 

[300winmag]

I don't know if these were NRA sponsored bills or a state level rights sponsored bills, but we had a 'gun free zone' liability bill and also a bill that changed the wording of our 'no gun fine signs' that became law this year.  Both are worthless political noise laws that do not benefit really anyone carrying a handgun.  The time spent on those bills could have been used on a solid bill that removed the misdemeanor weapons charge (yes we can get fined even after paying our dues to the state for a permit) for carrying past a 'no gun' sign.  It's crazy that we can get a weapons charge for doing business at our local power company,  city or county government offices, or visiting someone at a hospital.

The college carry bills that became law this year were so poorly worded that only full time employees can carry at public colleges. The rest of us risk a felony charge for carrying at a public college. Private colleges have to 'allow' people through policy to carry in order to not get charged with a felony weapons charge.   We all know that no private college is going to allow carry through policy so those are still basically illegal to carry at.  Again I don't know if those were NRA sponsored or state level rights org sponsored bills but these do not help folks either.

[monkeylizard]

Worriedman will know better than I would, but I think (at least one of) those bills started out good, but got completely rewritten in the process. I know the liability bill was that way. AFAIK, the NRA doesn't involve itself in our state politics, for good or ill.

[JayC]

4 hours ago, BHG123 said:

I see what you are saying, I am not for compromise either but it seems the nature of politics in general.  I cannot condemn them, though, because they really are the biggest game in town with the financial ability to actually do something.  After all, what would gun laws be like today if there was no NRA?

Gun Owners Of America sounds like something I should look at.  I will do it when I have a few spare minutes. 

The thing the NRA does well is informing gun owners about proposed legislation it doesn't agree with and getting us to call in droves...  That along with the fact a lot of us are single issue voters, if you're anti-gun you're not ever going to get my vote.  The NRA would be just as effective in blocking bad legislation today if they said NO to any new gun law that takes rights away...  for example after Sandy Hook.

I had hoped they had learned a lesson from the mess they almost created, but here we go again with NRA language to back removing a constitutional right with no due process of law before the fact.

[JayC]

21 hours ago, 300winmag said:

I don't know if these were NRA sponsored bills or a state level rights sponsored bills, but we had a 'gun free zone' liability bill and also a bill that changed the wording of our 'no gun fine signs' that became law this year.  Both are worthless political noise laws that do not benefit really anyone carrying a handgun.  The time spent on those bills could have been used on a solid bill that removed the misdemeanor weapons charge (yes we can get fined even after paying our dues to the state for a permit) for carrying past a 'no gun' sign.  It's crazy that we can get a weapons charge for doing business at our local power company,  city or county government offices, or visiting someone at a hospital.

The college carry bills that became law this year were so poorly worded that only full time employees can carry at public colleges. The rest of us risk a felony charge for carrying at a public college. Private colleges have to 'allow' people through policy to carry in order to not get charged with a felony weapons charge.   We all know that no private college is going to allow carry through policy so those are still basically illegal to carry at.  Again I don't know if those were NRA sponsored or state level rights org sponsored bills but these do not help folks either.

This is because the TFA violated it's own beliefs and started to push for HCP holders to be a protected employment class...  They burned a LOT of bridges in the process, and pissed off a lot of supporters that are business owners and property owners like myself.

They need to refocus their efforts on removing gun free zones from the public sphere, and tell their members if their current boss doesn't care enough about their safety to allow them to carry a firearm, they probably should go find a new employer.

Edited December 6, 2016 by JayC

[300winmag]

JayC

Exactly.  Those private employment policy related gun bills should have never been proposed.  A private employer can dismiss employees in TN for no reason at all the way I understand it so what does that sort of law protect?  If your employer does not like guns and he knows you keep a gun in your car, he'll just tell you he canned you for some other reason instead of you keeping the gun in the car at work.  Don't ask don't tell is the best way to handle that at most businesses.

I agree with you that state gun rights orgs need to concentrate on removing criminal penalties for carrying in certain locations VS feel good laws.  You only get so much time to try to pass a bill and the legislature is not going to spend all its time on gun bills. 

[Guest BHG123]

1 hour ago, 300winmag said:

Exactly.  Those private employment policy related gun bills should have never been proposed.  A private employer can dismiss employees in TN for no reason at all the way I understand it so what does that sort of law protect?

What proposed law are you talking about?  Is it to protect employees who get fired because they like to own guns?

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, BHG123 said:

What proposed law are you talking about?  Is it to protect employees who get fired because they like to own guns?

Yeah, possession in vehicle on employer property (by permit holder only). Passed about 3 years ago, "strengthened" this year (but in reality not by much if at all) by recourse of civil action against employer for violation.

- OS

Edited December 6, 2016 by Oh Shoot