I was on First Person Defender, critique me

[timcar86]

If you haven’t seen it, GunTalk Media puts on show called First Person Defender. It’s where people are put into everyday situations with role players and simunitions in a force on force scenario. If nothing else, I would encourage you to check it out just to see how some people react to different things while armed. You can take away some pretty unique perspectives when

Earlier this year, they put out a request for participants in the next season so I submitted a video. Much to my surprise, I was accepted. So in early August I drove down to Baton Rouge and filmed two shows; one where I was the participant and one where I was a role player.

Here’s the show I was in

 So, if you watched the show, critique my performance. I don’t mind. But before you do, here are a few things they edited out from my after action report:

-       In the 1^st scenario, I told Chris that the reason I drew is that I wasn’t sure if the attacker was going to present a weapon. Based on his earlier behavior, I believed this was a very real possibility and since he was in such close proximity to the man he was wrestling, I didn’t want to be behind the curve if he did draw a knife or other weapon.

-       In the 2^nd scenario, after the shooting, I pointed my gun at 2 other people in the store. I was scanning for more threats and when I looked at them, I pointed my gun at them. I legitimately thought they would have more than one shooter in that scenario so I was really wary of the other people. It turned out they weren’t threats but I’m honestly not sure if that was just bad or really bad.

-       Also in the 2^nd scenario, I assumed the person calling 911 would be able to give the correct information so I wasn’t coaching her on what to say. After I shot the guy I kept my gun trained on him and tried to keep most of my focus in his direction. We know in the real world that if you shoot someone they can pass out, drop to the ground, equalize blood pressure, regain consciousness and go back to fighting. I didn’t think enough time had passed after the shoot to warrant me reholstering and by time police would have arrived, I would have reholstered or disarmed.

That’s it, let me know what you would have done or what I should have done differently.

[Erik88]

That's exciting. I like that show and I've been waiting on more episodes. I'll watch it when I get back to the house.

[bud]

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Edited April 26, 2017 by bud

[Erik88]

Before I share my thoughts let me just say that it's very easy to sit here on my couch and say what I would and would not have done. I think you did far better than many of the other people I've seen on the show and better than I would have done.

1st Scenario- I was impressed with how well and for how long you were able to deescalate the situation. You avoided a fight and even offered to leave instead of trying to be a hero. As for drawing your gun, that was probably a bad decision for several reasons but I understand why you did it. What ran through my mind is that had it been a real situation you could have planted your boot in the attackers ribs while he was on top of that guy. That would have enabled you to help without going lethal. The downside is that you still would be involved. Honestly, the best thing would have been if you could have called police and been a good witness since there was no weapon and you were no longer in danger.

2nd Scenario- I think you did fantastic in this one. You responded immediately and placed shots on target. One thing I noticed is that the bad guy was right in front of the door. Let's say you miss or a shot goes through him, you could potentially kill an innocent person that's about to walk into the store. I think about this a lot when I'm out in public. I realize this is unlikely but still a possibility. Obviously that didn't happen this time and you responded as you should have, but having a good backstop is something to consider.

Now, as for you pointing your gun towards the other shoppers I guess it is bad but I probably would have done the same thing. That is just something you will have to train on. Scan your surroundings without pointing your weapon. The fact that you even thought to do this shows that the training you've had is working. Overall I think you did really well.

[timcar86]

Thanks for the opinion.

[TGO David]

First, I really appreciate the candor and willingness to make yourself vulnerable to scrutiny like this.  Much respect.

Force on Force is an eye-opener for anyone who has never done it.  I have had the opportunity to do it twice now and we ran multiple scenarios both times.  In some scenarios I did fine, in others I cleared leather "too soon" and in two I got smoked by not clearing leather soon enough.  Both times I got whacked were during the first time I ever did Force on Force training.  The second time I did it, I cleared leather quickly on a few scenarios where it was ultimately warranted but the instructors felt like I did it prematurely.  I was determined not to get shot.

Honestly, it taught me that surviving any such encounter is going to be equal parts intuition, training and luck.  The more of any of those that you can add to the mixture, the better off you are.  The only one you really have any control over is the element of training.  Intuition can be sharpened, but some people just don't have it.  Luck is the cruelest of them all.

The convenience store scenario is the only one that I watched given limited time, and I really don't have any constructive criticism to offer that you didn't offer on your own, on camera.  When you looked away for that one moment the entire situation changed drastically for the worst.  I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.  But here's what I *will* say:

We carry handguns, ultimately, for our own defense.  We hope to be able to protect those that we love as well.  To a much lesser degree we endeavor to try to protect others too.  In that scenario, the shop keeper's luck ran out but you put rounds on bad-guy, saved other patrons, and "walked away" to analyze it later.  That is a success in my book.

I'd like to do some more Force on Force training myself, soon.  Having seen the Shoot House at Royal Range in Bellevue today, I want it even more now.

 

[peejman]

I'm no expert, but I think you did really well.  A couple comments... 

I may have tried a little harder to get out earlier in the 1st scenario. I don't have a dog in that fight all I want is to get out and call it in. You didn't have a great opportunity to get out and it's certainly a little questionable on getting forceful trying to leave. 

2nd one, maybe approach the BG a little sooner after he was down to ensure he's down, disarm, and render aid to the clerk. But then you don't know if the BG has friends outside, so...  

Regardless, that looked like really good stuff. Way better than perforating paper. 

[Jamie Jackson]

I've met Tim and had the pleasure of discussing training issues and concepts with him and doing a bit of shooting with him. He's a serious student of the art and a talented shooter. As well as a heck of a good guy.

It takes some guts to pressure test yourself in such a manner and put it out there for the world to see. Mad Props my friend! And well done! 

I've done a fair amount of FOF training (been a few years...so not as Recent-Relevant-Realistic as I would like) using FIST helmets, FIST  and Red Man suits, SIMS guns, Airsoft Guns and Impact tools. Pressure Testing what you practice and believe you know can be a paradigm shift for most folks. Pressure Testing leads to learning, and imho is the only way to really learn if what you are practicing has true value. Just an opinion... but a lot of SIMS "kisses" help form that opinion.

We take the vast majority of our mental/sensory input visually and quite a bit auditorily. The helmets in the vid look like they would limit, and distort your visual input, most probably your auditory input. Toss in several role players in various brightly colored shirts, crew members that “aren’t there (invisible)”, but are visual input cues anyway, and on top of that you know you are being tested…and there is a “pain penalty” using SIMS…well, that’s an unusual set of circumstances that most folks have never experienced before…it’s challenging my friends. But more than worth the effort for a serious student.

In my experience, in a well scripted FOF scenario, you’ll be “drawn in” and the mind tends to accept the “reality” of the situation. So covering or muzzling the non-threats is highly likely, as you have to ascertain the Good Guys/Gals from the Bad Guys/Gals. Analysis of recent encounters demonstrate that trouble travels in pairs or packs…  

The majority of classes/schools/trainers don’t address the verbalization skills that need to be a part of the training process. Claude Werner (The Tactical Professor) has recently written some excellent material on this subject. It’s an area I need to concentrate on much more than I do in my own practice sessions.

It’s obvious from hearing you critique yourself in the vid that you have solid insight and learned a good deal from this experience. A lot of shooters wouldn’t put themselves into this level of testing. I applaud you Sir. You have my respect and admiration.

You obliviously have a great hold on the Conscious Competence Matrix as well. And just as obvious you are working on moving through it. Good on you!

As for any Monday Morning quarterbacking on my part: “Detached Reflection Cannot Be Demanded in the Presence of an Uplifted Knife” Justice Holmes, Brown vs U.S.

Thank you for sharing this with us Tim.

[Jamie Jackson]

TGO David;

I have been "killed "more times than I can count in FOF scenarios. That pushing to a failure point, and learning from that experience, is invaluable imho.

[TGO David]

2 hours ago, prag said:

TGO David;

I have been "killed "more times than I can count in FOF scenarios. That pushing to a failure point, and learning from that experience, is invaluable imho.

It's far better to be "killed" in a simulation than the real thing.  Sim rounds hurt, too.

 

[A.J. Holst]

Tim, thanks for posting, looks like it was a pretty cool training opportunity.

I noticed in scenario 1, you looked for concealment and tried to maintain distance. In a real convenience store, here is where I'm hoping there is an alternative exit to escape.

When the BG approached you and you employed the fence and told him to back off, it appeared the actor/instructor was not expecting it (atypical student[victim] behavior?)

I know you were planning on pistol whipping the dude as it didn't appear he needed to be shot.

Nice control of the scene post shooting and directing bystanders in scenario 2.

The instructor pointed out how the agitated witness called in, you were the shooter from a first responder perspective.

Shots fired, 2 down, man with a gun.

[BrasilNuts]

On December 3, 2016 at 6:35 AM, prag said:

TGO David;

I have been "killed "more times than I can count in FOF scenarios. That pushing to a failure point, and learning from that experience, is invaluable imho.

My first FOF experience was with you, you promptly shot me square in the left nipple.  I learned.  

timcar86, thanks for posting.

 

 

[Jamie Jackson]

54 minutes ago, BrasilNuts said:

My first FOF experience was with you, you promptly shot me square in the left nipple.  I learned.  

 

 

 

You're welcome. 

 

And yes, it has an excellent learning potential my friend.