AR Lower Receiver

[saintsfanbrian]

Okay, I am thinking about starting to collect the requisite parts to build my own AR.

What is a good Lower Receiver and should I get a stripped or a complete lower receiver?

All help is appreciated. I figure if I start with that, then if the powers that be decide that they don't want us owning them again, I will have the "big part" of the gun of my dreams.

I know I want 5.56 chambering so I can shoot it and .223 but other than that I am not sure which route to take.

[SkWaShDeM]

Personally... I'd get a complete lower if possible from whichever reputable brand strikes your fancy. Unless you're really comfortable dropping the small parts in and such. Then you could get the stripped, and literally pick every component to build the exact rifle you want. The same advice applies to upper receivers in my opinion. Which is worth exactly what you pay for it.

[Guest macho999]

A stripped lower took me about 30 minutes to complete and I'd never seen an ar-15 in person.

[The Rabbi]

The lower is not a complicated thing to put together. There is no, zero, difference between lowers from Armalite, Colt, Bushmaster, etc. I usually sell one from a mom n pop operation in LA. He used to make them for Bushmaster and they great and very reasonably priced.

The place to spend money on the AR is the barrel. I also found the stainless bolt carrier to be a great addition. I bought an adjustable gas block and its useless.

You might consider a gun chambered in .223 Wylde to shoot both .223 and 5.56.

[BimmerFreak]

As someone mentioned; All (or at least most) lower receivers are built to the same specs these days.

It really boils down to what you want the roll mark to say.

We stock and sell Stag Arms (CMT) lowers as our in-house brand.

We have been very happy with the quality of both the Stag rifle, and their lowers.

Remember that Stag/CMT has built, or currently builds parts, lowers, and rifles for most of the big names in the industry.

These go for 130.00 (prices on lowers is on the rise once again) in the shop, and we also offer lowers with a Certificate of Non-Assembly from Stag for another 10 bucks.

This is great if you are building an AR pistol.

We also sell Noveske (made by Stag/CMT), Wilson Combat, and Sabre Defence if you are looking for something a bit different.

Good luck with your build, and feel free to contact us if you have questions about your build sheet, or the actual build.

[The Rabbi]

What is a "Certificate of Non-Assembly"?

[BimmerFreak]

What is a "Certificate of Non-Assembly"?

As you may (or may not) know, you may not build an AR pistol from receivers previously built or registered as rifles.

This means that receivers must be logged in as a PISTOL rather than a rifle for it to be eligible for the buyer/builder to make it a pistol.

Stag Arms will send a Cert of non-assembly at the dealers request for a specific serial numbered lower, which states that this receiver has never been anything but a pistol.

Note:

While you may not go from rifle to pistol, you are able to go from pistol to rifle. BUT, once it has been converted to a rifle, you cant (legally) go back to pistol configuration.

[The Rabbi]

Uh, whatever you say.....

[molonlabetn]

That's very similar to the rules regarding the difference between Short-Barrelled-Shotguns, and Any-Other-Weapons... The recievers which originally came with a pistol-grip affixed, instead of a shoulder-stock, can be much more easily (cheaply) converted into more compact packages (see Serbu-Shorty)...

I wouldn't have much use for a AR15 pistol... but I'd love an SBR in a large-bore... .45 Bushmaster probably. Real handy, that would be!

[BimmerFreak]

Uh, whatever you say.....

If you wish to show your ignorance, please feel free to PM or contact me offline.

Are you really trying to sharp shoot another dealer in open forum?

Classy.

[BimmerFreak]

That's very similar to the rules regarding the difference between Short-Barrelled-Shotguns, and Any-Other-Weapons... The recievers which originally came with a pistol-grip affixed, instead of a shoulder-stock, can be much more easily (cheaply) converted into more compact packages (see Serbu-Shorty)...

I wouldn't have much use for a AR15 pistol... but I'd love an SBR in a large-bore... .45 Bushmaster probably. Real handy, that would be!

Correct.

For a SBS to be classified as an AOW and subject to a 5.00 tax stamp rather than the 200.00 stamp required on the SBS, the device must be built on a virgin reciever.

[Guest Voodoo_1]

IMHO, the best AR upper/lower/complete rifle is made right here in Tennessee. The company is Sabre Defence, in Nashville, and was a well kept secret for a while. They introduced themselves to the world with the introduction of the Massad Ayoob Signature Rifles back in November 2006.

It is my understanding that only (3) manufacturers produce AR rifles/componants/parts to military specifications. They are Colt, LMT, and Sabre Defence. All others build to looser tolerances than mil spec. As others have said, there is not much difference between the other manufactures because they generally don't produce the parts. They buy the parts from different suppliers and assemble the rifle/component from these parts. Most of the these manufactures buy from the same suppliers thus, most uppers/lowers/rifles are just alike.

If you are looking at quality more than price, IMHO this is the order of choice:

1. Sabre Defence

2. LMT

3. Colt

4. Bushmaster and others mentioned.

My choice for making Sabre Defence #1 is due to the fact that their manufacturing process is basically building custom built rifles for their customers. To give you an idea, if you buy a complete rifle from Sabre, the upper and lower are custom matched and stay together throughout the assembly process. Hold a Sabre rifle up to the sun, you will see no light between the upper and lower. All others you will be able to see light. This is not the only reason to choose a Sabre, but it shows their dedication to quality. If it were not a rifle of the highest quality, I do not believe Massad would have his signature on the rifle. His reputation is his life.

[BimmerFreak]

IMHO, the best AR upper/lower/complete rifle is made right here in Tennessee. The company is Sabre Defence, in Nashville, and was a well kept secret for a while. They introduced themselves to the world with the introduction of the Massad Ayoob Signature Rifles back in November 2006.

It is my understanding that only (3) manufacturers produce AR rifles/componants/parts to military specifications. They are Colt, LMT, and Sabre Defence. All others build to looser tolerances than mil spec. As others have said, there is not much difference between the other manufactures because they generally don't produce the parts. They buy the parts from different suppliers and assemble the rifle/component from these parts. Most of the these manufactures buy from the same suppliers thus, most uppers/lowers/rifles are just alike.

If you are looking at quality more than price, IMHO this is the order of choice:

1. Sabre Defence

2. LMT

3. Colt

4. Bushmaster and others mentioned.

My choice for making Sabre Defence #1 is due to the fact that their manufacturing process is basically building custom built rifles for their customers. To give you an idea, if you buy a complete rifle from Sabre, the upper and lower are custom matched and stay together throughout the assembly process. Hold a Sabre rifle up to the sun, you will see no light between the upper and lower. All others you will be able to see light. This is not the only reason to choose a Sabre, but it shows their dedication to quality. If it were not a rifle of the highest quality, I do not believe Massad would have his signature on the rifle. His reputation is his life.

A bit of interesting Sabre trivia:

They produce two different receivers:

1. "Sabre "kitty cat" rollmark= Left Sabre as a complete rifle built BY THEM

2. No kitty; Just Sabre Defence Nashville, TN = Sold as a stripped or complete lower, and then built by someone other than Sabre.

[Guest Voodoo_1]

A bit of interesting Sabre trivia:

They produce two different receivers:

1. "Sabre "kitty cat" rollmark= Left Sabre as a complete rifle built BY THEM

2. No kitty; Just Sabre Defence Nashville, TN = Sold as a stripped or complete lower, and then built by someone other than Sabre.

Thanks Hero, I was not aware of this.

[The Rabbi]

If you wish to show your ignorance, please feel free to PM or contact me offline.

Are you really trying to sharp shoot another dealer in open forum?

Classy.

OK.

Please explain where and how registration as a rifle or pistol for a lower receiver is accomplished. Also please supply the appropriate reference in the Green Book.

[BimmerFreak]

OK.

Please explain where and how registration as a rifle or pistol for a lower receiver is accomplished. Also please supply the appropriate reference in the Green Book.

Rabbi, if you wish to LEARN and gain knowledge and insight into this, feel free to contact me. I would be glad to get you up to speed.

Here is a ruling letter from ATF that states that the pistol receiver must not have ever been built into a rifle

This is why Stag offers the Cert of non-assembly for the prospective builder/buyer.

Remember, when the receiver comes into your shop, you log it in as a pistol or long gun.

If it goes onto your books as a long gun...and you mark Rifle on the 4473, guess what....its a long gun.

Most companies will not take the time ship receivers with certs of non-assembly, but Stag is willing to do so. Major props to them!

Is the Certificate required? No.

Does it make things more clear and easier for the buyer? I think so!

Here is an example of a dealer bringing in a receiver, putting it on his books as a long gun, and marking the 4473 as pistol.

While the buyer ended up being fine, it caused some questions and confusion for him.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=330003

Read this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=266557

It will explain everything you need to know regarding this matter.

[Guest Hornet Handler]

+1 on the Sabre Defence.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=550

[Guest dpeneguy]

Rabbi why do you always seem to argue about anything and everything on these forums . I am not trying to be an ass but that is just something I have noticed in my short time as a member here at TGO .

[molonlabetn]

Let's try to keep personal discussions where they belong, and topic-related discussion civil. Anything not related to long-guns, or insightful in some way, is fair game for deletion.

[The Rabbi]

Thanks for the info.

Not surprisingly the letter does not accord with what I was told by ATF from the Nashville branch.

Since ATF would have to research the pistol/rifle to see what the original configuration was I doubt anyone has ever been charged with this alleged offense.

Further, the letter does not accord with the law's own definition of SBR, given at the GCA 921:7-8. I don't know when an administrative letter trumps Federal law as a guiding principle.

I think ATF makes these things up as they go along.

It isnt a pissing contest, it is a quest to find out what the actual law is. I strongly suspect, and the expert at ATF I spoke with felt so too, that the whole "registered as a rifle/pistol" business is a ploy by manufacturers to make more money from a low margin product. As far as I am concerned, and I strongly suspect this would hold up well, the actual construction is what determines what it is: if it has a shoulder stock and a barrel less than 16" then it is a SBR. If it doesn't, it isnt.

[BimmerFreak]

Thanks for the info.

Not surprisingly the letter does not accord with what I was told by ATF from the Nashville branch.

Since ATF would have to research the pistol/rifle to see what the original configuration was I doubt anyone has ever been charged with this alleged offense.

Further, the letter does not accord with the law's own definition of SBR, given at the GCA 921:7-8. I don't know when an administrative letter trumps Federal law as a guiding principle.

I think ATF makes these things up as they go along.

It isnt a pissing contest, it is a quest to find out what the actual law is. I strongly suspect, and the expert at ATF I spoke with felt so too, that the whole "registered as a rifle/pistol" business is a ploy by manufacturers to make more money from a low margin product. As far as I am concerned, and I strongly suspect this would hold up well, the actual construction is what determines what it is: if it has a shoulder stock and a barrel less than 16" then it is a SBR. If it doesn't, it isnt.

1. You can put 10 ATF agents in a room, and ask them all the same question.

The result? 11 different answers.

2. I dont subscribe to the whole "the manufacturers are just trying to make more money..." since the cost of a "pistol" lower is the same as a regular rifle lower.

*They are the same price from my manufacturers. Dealers may charge more for pistol lowers, but I dont.

3. The only added costs I have seen from a manufacturer, is the additional charge for the certificate of non-assembly.

We offer this option as a service to the customer.

If they want it, fine. If not, thats cool too.

(We charge the customer exactly what Stag charges us, so there is no additional margin for us)

[The Rabbi]

Heck, you could call ATF in the morning and ask a question and then call them again in the afternoon, talk to the same person, and get the opposite answer.

I once asked a very experienced (over 20 years' service) agent about the minimum parts in imported parts kits (another bugaboo of mine). He was clueless. Had never heard of this before.

As I say, I doubt that letter will get anywhere since to my knowledge it is not part of the regs.

[Guest utarch00]

+2 for Sabre Defence

I have one of there stripped lowers on my 10.5" LMT upper. I love it and it is made here in Nashville.

[Guest macho999]

Well this thread went way off track. Brian- I'd strongly suggest going with a stripped lower. They're less expensive and you get a real knowledge of how all the little pieces work. The only tools you need are punches and a little hammer but you could use a nail instead of a punch if you wanted. Plus there's a certain pride that comes with hammering a few pins in and telling everyone you built it yourself.

For a stripped upper you need a vise and a couple of special tools. I'd recommend just getting the upper built unless you have a real do it yourself urge. Buying the tools makes it less economical unless you are doing more than a few.

If you get a stripped lower and a "kit" the kit will come with an assembled upper, a stock and the parts kit for the lower. It's everything you need. If you dont see any particular kit you like you can buy it all separate. I've got a colt sp1 upper on one of mine.

For the guy asking about local stuff I have one lower that's marked predator custom shop knoxville, tn on it.

[saintsfanbrian]

Thanks all, I am going to check out this Sabre Defense people and see if the local gun shop can get in the stripped lower. Still seems a bit strange to be plopping down $100+ on a peice of metal that may one day be a gun depending on how laws in this country go.