Obama - Natural born or not?

[Reservoir Dog]

In my opinion a digital document cannot be properly certified. The original is purported to have been inspected by Factcheck.org, who incidently is a former employer and campaign contributor of P.E. Obama.

I don't really care about Factcheck.org, either. However, the Hawaii Department of Health has verified that the certificate is real. If you want to keep grasping at straws, go ahead.

[Guest 70below]

I'm sorry this thread is so disturbing to you. Feel free to ignore it.

[Reservoir Dog]

I'm sorry this thread is so disturbing to you. Feel free to ignore it.

I don't find any internet thread disturbing. Never said I did. I do, however, like to call out stupidity when I see it.

Of course, this is a typical response I would have expected from your kind. Ignore the facts, and believe only what supports your opinion. It seems you find the truth disturbing, since it does not support your views. Oh, well. I will let you get back to your own little fantasy land.

[Guest nraforlife]

I don't find any internet thread disturbing. Never said I did. I do, however, like to call out stupidity when I see it.

Of course, this is a typical response I would have expected from your kind. Ignore the facts, and believe only what supports your opinion. It seems you find the truth disturbing, since it does not support your views. Oh, well. I will let you get back to your own little fantasy land.

What facts are you referring to? Also please explain what you meant by referring to responders as 'your kind'. What the truth is, is a philosophy question as the truth is shaded by what one wants to believe.

The thread asked a simple question that has most everyone dancing around an answer and going off on tangents. What happens IF THE O isn't in fact 'native born' and is ineligible to be President?

Edited January 2, 2009 by nraforlife

[frontier737]

How dare anyone question the qualifications of The One! No doubt part of the vast right wing conspiracy.

In the the past 8 years how much crap have we heard from the left and from the totally unbiased, objective and balanced press? Everything from the pre-war intelligence that showed Iraq had WMD's- never mind that the whole world thought so, including Bill Clinton to the firing of all the Attorneys General- who cares if they serve at the pleasure of the president?

The pure vitriol from the left over the last 8 years has been staggering.

I guess any questions regarding Obama's qualifications is a partisan ploy which shows the meaness and evil which is limited only to the right.

I'll end my rant the way I started: How dare anyone question Obama's wealth of experience or his qualifications!

[Guest 70below]

I'm sorry you feel that I'm "That Kind", I just hold our country in the highest regard. You can't express yourself freely as we can, just anywhere, and regardless of what issues we may face as a country, it is STILL the greatest country on the face of the earth. Because of these things, and others, I hold the leader of our country to a higher standard than most and believe that our founding fathers must have had some pretty darn good ideas to have created such a great country. I do believe there are alot of politicians in these times that don't have our country's best interests in mind before their own. Whether Obama is one of those people remains to be seen, but until that time comes, I'm just would like someone that does not have connection with P.E. Obama to certify the document. Regardless of who or who has not certified the document, the challenge was raised in court.....I feel its a legitimate request (it remains to be seen if the court feels the same way), and then it will be known if a court finds it is a legitimate document. If another presidential canidate can supply the court with that document and easily appease the courts, why can he not do the same? Seems simple enough to me. No conspiracy theories needed.

[Mike.357]

What happens IF THE O isn't in fact 'native born' and is ineligible to be President?

My search fu is weak but I believe it has been determined that Biden would simply become the next president and in turn he would appoint the next VP

[Guest nraforlife]

My search fu is weak but I believe it has been determined that Biden would simply become the next president and in turn he would appoint the next VP

So Biden appoints Hillary as VP. Biden steps aside due to 'health' reasons and Hillary then becomes President.

[Reservoir Dog]

What facts are you referring to? Also please explain what you meant by referring to responders as 'your kind'.

The facts are that Obama has released his birth certificate. It has the official stamp and raised seal from the state of Hawaii. The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that it is valid, and that they hold the original in their files. Those are pretty strong facts. In addition there is a complete absence of any kind of factual evidence whatsoever that Obama is not a US citizen.

"Your kind" referred to people who believe that anything they do not agree with is some sort of vast conspiracy to hide information from the American public. They will believe anything posted on the internet that furthers their view, regardless of fact. Kind of like you positing a comedy hoax video from The Onion, then stating that "it's started," thinking it is real.

I'm just would like someone that does not have connection with P.E. Obama to certify the document. Regardless of who or who has not certified the document, the challenge was raised in court...

The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that the document is real. They are the issuing agency, and not connected to Obama. What about that? Or are they also part of the conspiracy, as well?

What court challange are you talking about. Most of them have been dismissed. Are you referring to the Berg lawsuit out of Pennsylvania. The same Philip Berg who is a 9/11 Truther, and believes in this vast government conspiracy? The same lawsuit that cites Wikipedia postings and internet rumors as it's factual allegations? Is that the lawsuit you are referring to?

Please. :-\

Edited January 2, 2009 by Reservoir Dog

[Guest Len]

Factcheck also notes that there is a birth announcement for Obama in the Honolulu Advertiser (the daily there) for the appropriate day. Pics and everything, scroll about 90% of the way down to see the newspaper announcement.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

The facts are that Obama has released his birth certificate. It has the official stamp and raised seal from the state of Hawaii. The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that it is valid, and that they hold the original in their files. Those are pretty strong facts. In addition there is a complete absence of any kind of factual evidence whatsoever that Obama is not a US citizen.

"Your kind" referred to people who believe that anything they do not agree with is some sort of vast conspiracy to hide information from the American public. They will believe anything posted on the internet that furthers their view, regardless of fact. Kind of like you positing a comedy hoax video from The Onion, then stating that "it's started," thinking it is real.

The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that the document is real. They are the issuing agency, and not connected to Obama. What about that? Or are they also part of the conspiracy, as well?

What court challange are you talking about. Most of them have been dismissed. Are you referring to the Berg lawsuit out of Pennsylvania. The same Philip Berg who is a 9/11 Truther, and believes in this vast government conspiracy? The same lawsuit that cites Wikipedia postings and internet rumors as it's factual allegations? Is that the lawsuit you are referring to?

Please. :-\

[Mike.357]

hey! enough of letting facts get in the way of a good story.

[Guest 70below]

Well, I'm glad to know I'm a internet conspiracy theory kook. Thank you. Your opinion is well respected, and appreciated. I will fully admit that I am no expert, and I am fallible as anyone, and there may be pieces of information that I may be missing that have occurred since the election. I will certainly admit any error that I may have made in any of my assumptions. Just because I don't take your word for something, or the medias word for something, doesn't mean I think there is a vast conspiracy. The last time I've done any real searching on this issue was prior to the election, and I'm quite sure things may have some to light outside of my knowledge. And you know what, I really don't plan on looking any more up. I'll wait for "The Onion" to release a story on it. After all, Austin's most popular news source can't be wrong, can it?

I'm not speaking here as an expert, just expressing my opinion of what I believe would have been the most appropriate measures for P.E. Obama to take, and what I would find to be the most respectful to the citizens of our country. What does my opinion mean? Not a whole hell of alot, but its my opinion, and frankly, if you disagree with it, so be it, you're entitled to consider me a conspiracy kook. As far as the State of Hawaii Health Departments certification of the document, I've not read it to see what exactly was said. Do I think the State of Hawaii would make it up and lie about it, of course not, do I think there is an outside possiblity they could of....sure, anythings possible. I don't know the first thing about certifying a document.......not my field of expertise. Philip Berg has made alot of money on his conspiracy theories, and probably entertained millions, do I think he is the smartest guy on the planet? Maybe, he makes more money than I do, do I think he's full of crap? Mostly. He also had alot to gain from getting Obama ousted.......he supports Hillary Clinton over Obama. Frankly I stand to benefit more from Obama's term as President financially than most, so I'll take it as it comes.

[Seaslug]

The facts are that Obama has released his birth certificate. It has the official stamp and raised seal from the state of Hawaii. The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that it is valid, and that they hold the original in their files. Those are pretty strong facts. In addition there is a complete absence of any kind of factual evidence whatsoever that Obama is not a US citizen.

"Your kind" referred to people who believe that anything they do not agree with is some sort of vast conspiracy to hide information from the American public. They will believe anything posted on the internet that furthers their view, regardless of fact. Kind of like you positing a comedy hoax video from The Onion, then stating that "it's started," thinking it is real.

The Hawaii Department of Health has verified that the document is real. They are the issuing agency, and not connected to Obama. What about that? Or are they also part of the conspiracy, as well?

What court challange are you talking about. Most of them have been dismissed. Are you referring to the Berg lawsuit out of Pennsylvania. The same Philip Berg who is a 9/11 Truther, and believes in this vast government conspiracy? The same lawsuit that cites Wikipedia postings and internet rumors as it's factual allegations? Is that the lawsuit you are referring to?

Please. :-\

How interesting that you would be so condescending toward those who have raised questions based on information that has been circulating on the internet, and yet the only "proof" that you have offered to support your position was a statement attributed to the Hawai'i Dept. of Health (whom you rather naively assume could in no way be in cahoots with the PE) that was posted on Obama's website and "all over the internet". Huh.

Around age 12, you should have developed the ability to reason logically. Were you not apparently deficient in this area, you might have seen the irony inherent in your argument. As it were, you chose to become belligerent and insult the intelligence and motives of anyone whose opinions did not match your own (again, ironic). For someone who claims to enjoy "calling out stupidity", you might want to take a look in the mirror. Ought to find plenty of enjoyment in that exercise...

Please.

[Guest nraforlife]

Going BACK to the question that started this thread, as it has devolved into a is he or isn't he brawl.

ASSUMING that there is merit in Obama not being a native born American and then ASSUMING that he isn't eligible to be President, then what?

How can one say that they are all for the Constitution and the rights we have, ie. the 2nd Amendment, and NOT be concerned that we MAY have someone as President that is in violation of the Constitution itself.

[Reservoir Dog]

...and yet the only "proof" that you have offered to support your position was a statement attributed to the Hawai'i Dept. of Health (whom you rather naively assume could in no way be in cahoots with the PE) that was posted on Obama's website and "all over the internet".

It might be posted on Obama's website, but unlike most in this thread, I get my info straight from the source. The Hawaii Dept of Health has reviewed Obama's original BC, and verified that they have the original in their files. Here is the link to the Hawaii DoH site and a Hawaii TV station that covered the release of the statement:

http://healthuser.hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news

Of course, these will mean nothing to you, as they are part of the vast conspiracy.

[Seaslug]

It might be posted on Obama's website, but unlike most in this thread, I get my info straight from the source. The Hawaii Dept of Health has reviewed Obama's original BC, and verified that they have the original in their files. Here is the link to the Hawaii DoH site and a Hawaii TV station that covered the release of the statement:

http://healthuser.hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news

Of course, these will mean nothing to you, as they are part of the vast conspiracy.

I guess we can add reading comprehension to your ever-growing list of intellectual deficiencies. I don't recall saying anything about subscribing to any sort of conspiracy theory. I simply found it ironic that someone could be so curt toward those who had the audacity to question the veracity of claims made by the PEOTUS, all the while swallowing hook, line, and sinker belated claims made by a goverment agency that has everything to gain by catering to said PEOTUS.

I swear, I find it increasingly difficult to have any sort of intellectual discussion with "your kind"...

[Guest 70below]

Sir, if that is your "evidence" then you are very naive. Neither of those pieces of documentation prove anything other than they have a birth certificate on file for P.E. Obama. It does not state what is contained in the certificate or when it was issued, only that it is a birth certificate. Such a certificate could have been issued after the event took place, much like a child that was born at home, then brought to the hospital to have a certificate issued.

In response to the original poster, sorry if I've contributed to derailing your thread. I will not tie up your thread outside of the original context any further. I am very much interested in what would happen in the "what if" scenario as well, it would probably bring about a supreme court decision to sort out.

Edited January 2, 2009 by 70below
spelling...duh....

[Reservoir Dog]

I don't recall saying anything about subscribing to any sort of conspiracy theory.

Really? From your previous posts:

...all the while swallowing hook, line, and sinker belated claims made by a goverment agency that has everything to gain by catering to said PEOTUS.

...a statement attributed to the Hawai'i Dept. of Health (whom you rather naively assume could in no way be in cahoots with the PE)...

It sure seems to me you are alluding that the state of Hawaii could be in "cahoots" with Obama to hide information.

I swear, I find it increasingly difficult to have any sort of intellectual discussion with "your kind"...

Thanks, I take that as a compliment.

[Seaslug]

Sir, if that is your "evidence" then you are very naive. Neither of those pieces of documentation prove anything other than they have a birth certificate on file for P.E. Obama. It does not state what is contained in the certificate or when it was issued, only that it is a birth certificate. Such a certificate could have been issued after the event took place, much like a child that was born at home, then brought to the hospital to have a certificate issued.

In response to the original poster, sorry if I've contributed to derailing your thread. I will not tie up your thread outside of the original context any further. I am very much interested in what would happen in the "what if" scenario as well, it would probably bring about a supreme court decision to sort out.

+1 on both paragraphs.

[Reservoir Dog]

Okay. Let's see the evidence that he is not a US citizen.

I have yet to see any. Please post some.

[Guest nraforlife]

Okay. Let's see the evidence that he is not a US citizen.

I have yet to see any. Please post some.

NO DOUBT that he is a US Citizen, NONE period and end of that discussion. HE IS A US CITIZEN!!! That's not what is in question. What is in question is whether he fulfills the "natural-born American" clause in the Constitution.

My question per THIS Thread is what happens IF it turns out he is not eligible?

[Mike.357]

My question per THIS Thread is what happens IF it turns out he is not eligible?

ahem, for the second time, in this regard Joe Biden would become the president.

Doesn't matter if Obama is booted before or after swearing in.

[shirtshirt]

NO DOUBT that he is a US Citizen, NONE period and end of that discussion. HE IS A US CITIZEN!!! That's not what is in question. What is in question is whether he fulfills the "natural-born American" clause in the Constitution.

Test tube baby?

I don't know how to tell you this, but he's going to be the new pres. I didn't vote for him and I'm not as filled with hope as some....but I'm an american and I'll support the President elect until I have a very good reason not to.

side note: One thing that really bothered me about the Bush term(s) (I didn't vote for him either) was the utter lack of respect for the President. It wasn't an issue of free speech as much as it was lack of tact that bothered me.

*gets off soapbox*

[Reservoir Dog]

My question per THIS Thread is what happens IF it turns out he is not eligible?

Hell, that's easy. The VP-elect would be sworn in as President, if the President-elect is determined not qualified for the job prior to the inauguration. See Section 3 of the 20th Amendment to the Constitution: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxx.html

If he has already been sworn in, and determined to be ineligible, then it gets a little murky. Probably some sort of removal proceedings, then the VP would assume the office of President. See the 25th Amendment to the Constitution: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxxv.html .

Of course, this is all a moot point as Obama was born in Hawaii, thus making him a natural-born US citizen. And I still have not seen a shred of evidence to prove otherwise.

[Guest SUNTZU]

NO DOUBT that he is a US Citizen, NONE period and end of that discussion. HE IS A US CITIZEN!!! That's not what is in question. What is in question is whether he fulfills the "natural-born American" clause in the Constitution.

My question per THIS Thread is what happens IF it turns out he is not eligible?