Expandable baton anyone?

[bmags]

I've been carrying a 21 inch ASP for a few years, actually longer than I've carried a pistol for EDC. Just curious to see if anyone else here does the same.

[Omega]

We got training in the use of one but never really carried one. Very effective if used properly.

[Jamie Jackson]

I carried a 21" many years back, an airweight mostly, and a standard black chrome at times.

I did my first impact tool class back in Baton Rouge and we (the training group I was in) worked many of the ground fighting techniques put forth by Kelly McCann (aka Jim Grover) at the time. fwiw one of our members went and trained with Mr.McCann and "shared" what he learned. I carried my Glock strong side at the time, and deployed the Asp from the appendix position. It worked well within it's limitations.

I switched to the appendix carry for my primary handgun and swapped the Asp for a flat sap in my right hip pocket. I found the sap much more useful in tangled up standing and ground fighting scenarios. I've been carrying the sap for about 13 years or so now, but still have my batons...I just need to give them some work out time. Eventually... 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I carried a 16" ASP when I worked the door at a music club in college. If I carry an impact weapon now it is either a sap or blackjack. While the ASP looks bad ass while being deployed (and in my own experience that HAS stopped more than one fight before it got started)  it does not hit nearly as hard as a sap or a jack when you actually have to use it. And a sap or a jack tends to work better in entangled fights where there is not much room to "wind up".  And if you hit people where it will be effective then you are using that baton as a deadly force tool....and that brings up the simple truth that no one wants to hear....

 

In TN a civilian can only use equal force under the law. A police officer is NOT bound by that. So while a police officer can legally beat your ass with a metal rod (baton) to get control of you in order to cuff you , a civilian would have to be in legitimate fear of grave bodily injury or death to use a baton. IF you actually ARE in fear of grave bodily injury or death then your firearm is the better solution 95+% of the time.

When is that 5% you ask? When I'm involved with a contact distance problem that would preclude me cleanly introducing the gun into the situation without it getting grabbed or getting my draw fouled. If I'm in a tangle (clinch) with dude or dudes trying to kill me then I need to be very careful about introducing the gun. Yes I know Zimmerman got his gun out under pressure but that was as much blind luck on his part as any real skill and he could just as easily have been disarmed and murdered. In this situation a baton would likely be just short of useless as you would be unlikely to get it opened and not have the distance to make the strikes hit hard enough to do enough damage to change their channel. At that distance interval the baton will likely have to be used in the closed position to strike with to then make enough space to fully deploy it...and good luck with that it it is 2 or 3 on one. We can make a good argument here that a blade (or any sharp pointy thing) would be better at less than 1 arms length at getting people to let go of you. 

So if we then accept that the baton (which under TN law is a "club" ) is a deadly force weapon, (just like a gun or knife) then we cannot legally employ it unless in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.....and if we ARE in fact in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death then the gun you carry is probably a better option than the baton. Just like you can't "Shoot them  just a little" and it not be deadly force, or "stab them just a little" and that not be deadly force the law says you can't "hit them just a little" with a club and it not be deadly force either.

Now, we MIGHT be able to make the argument that if it was used 100% within the parameters that the certifying company or agency that certified you to use the baton (in my case Monadnok) teaches as less lethal usage to make them comply, without striking anywhere that might be viewed as potentially causing permanent injury (yellow zones ) or any lethal area (red zones), then you MIGHT be able to argue your way out of that epic beat down you put on someone with an impact weapon....as long as they were employing lethal force against you to begin with. Hope your attorney has some experience with this.... But again, the state views the mere interjection of your club as deadly force and unless the other guy was using lethal force against you, then it probably will not go well for you in court. 

Ok so what about multiple assailants? How about using a baton against them since that would be lethal force due to disparity of force ?  Why would you pull a baton and try to fight multiple assailants with an impact weapon when you would already be justified to pull a gun, use it from distance so as to not get entangled with them and be more likely to survive unscathed? 

OK well what if I don't have a gun? What if I am somewhere that does not allow firearms? Tell me where you can legally carry an impact weapon that you could not legally carry a gun? Think about it....those "No weapons" signs mean NO WEAPONS not just no guns and whether you use a baton or a gun it is all the same. There is a reason "clubs" are prohibited from being carried under state law UNLESS you have been certified in their use. Carrying with a certification is an affirmative defense...not a "not get arrested" card. The only exception on this is if you pick up an improvised "club" and use it but we were discussing BYOC "bringing your own club".

Having said that , if you want to avail yourself of your right to get certified and carry an impact weapon, do so, but just be aware that civilians operate under different rules than cops with regards to using impact weapons. No lethal force used against you, no club for you.

  Again, cops use 'em because under state law they can use ANY and ALL force required to take people into custody....civilians can only use a commensurate amount of force to the force being used against them to repel the unlawful attack. So if even legally using a club requires that lethal force is first being used against you, then the club might not be the most appropriate tool to employ......

  

Edited November 16, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Pain103]

 They are good for getting things that roll under your car or breaking windows. Ive seen too many people take a good strike and keep fighting to think they are great. 

[Jamie Jackson]

 

13 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Having said that , if you want to avail yourself of your right to get certified and carry an impact weapon, do so, but just be aware that civilians operate under different rules than cops with regards to using impact weapons. No lethal force used against you, no club for you.

  Again, cops use 'em because under state law they can use ANY and ALL force required to take people into custody....civilians can only use a commensurate amount of force to the force being used against them to repel the unlawful attack. So if even legally using a club requires that lethal force is first being used against you, then the club might not be the most appropriate tool to employ......

  

Excellent post Randy. I don't think many folks appreciate the totality of the concept. Much like the concept of limb control during in-fight weapons access.The "internet statistics" insinuate there will be much more distance (space & therefore time) to access, for most, a firearm...reality may well prove much different.

Your 5% comments need to be taken seriously and considered. That's a bad reality...

I'll be sharing your post with some folks you know. 

 

But now I gotta get to work...

 

 

[bmags]

19 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I carried a 16" ASP when I worked the door at a music club in college. If I carry an impact weapon now it is either a sap or blackjack. While the ASP looks bad ass while being deployed (and in my own experience that HAS stopped more than one fight before it got started)  it does not hit nearly as hard as a sap or a jack when you actually have to use it. And a sap or a jack tends to work better in entangled fights where there is not much room to "wind up".  And if you hit people where it will be effective then you are using that baton as a deadly force tool....and that brings up the simple truth that no one wants to hear....

 

In TN a civilian can only use equal force under the law. A police officer is NOT bound by that. So while a police officer can legally beat your ass with a metal rod (baton) to get control of you in order to cuff you , a civilian would have to be in legitimate fear of grave bodily injury or death to use a baton. IF you actually ARE in fear of grave bodily injury or death then your firearm is the better solution 95+% of the time.

When is that 5% you ask? When I'm involved with a contact distance problem that would preclude me cleanly introducing the gun into the situation without it getting grabbed or getting my draw fouled. If I'm in a tangle (clinch) with dude or dudes trying to kill me then I need to be very careful about introducing the gun. Yes I know Zimmerman got his gun out under pressure but that was as much blind luck on his part as any real skill and he could just as easily have been disarmed and murdered. In this situation a baton would likely be just short of useless as you would be unlikely to get it opened and not have the distance to make the strikes hit hard enough to do enough damage to change their channel. At that distance interval the baton will likely have to be used in the closed position to strike with to then make enough space to fully deploy it...and good luck with that it it is 2 or 3 on one. We can make a good argument here that a blade (or any sharp pointy thing) would be better at less than 1 arms length at getting people to let go of you. 

So if we then accept that the baton (which under TN law is a "club" ) is a deadly force weapon, (just like a gun or knife) then we cannot legally employ it unless in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.....and if we ARE in fact in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death then the gun you carry is probably a better option than the baton. Just like you can't "Shoot them  just a little" and it not be deadly force, or "stab them just a little" and that not be deadly force the law says you can't "hit them just a little" with a club and it not be deadly force either.

Now, we MIGHT be able to make the argument that if it was used 100% within the parameters that the certifying company or agency that certified you to use the baton (in my case Monadnok) teaches as less lethal usage to make them comply, without striking anywhere that might be viewed as potentially causing permanent injury (yellow zones ) or any lethal area (red zones), then you MIGHT be able to argue your way out of that epic beat down you put on someone with an impact weapon....as long as they were employing lethal force against you to begin with. Hope your attorney has some experience with this.... But again, the state views the mere interjection of your club as deadly force and unless the other guy was using lethal force against you, then it probably will not go well for you in court. 

Ok so what about multiple assailants? How about using a baton against them since that would be lethal force due to disparity of force ?  Why would you pull a baton and try to fight multiple assailants with an impact weapon when you would already be justified to pull a gun, use it from distance so as to not get entangled with them and be more likely to survive unscathed? 

OK well what if I don't have a gun? What if I am somewhere that does not allow firearms? Tell me where you can legally carry an impact weapon that you could not legally carry a gun? Think about it....those "No weapons" signs mean NO WEAPONS not just no guns and whether you use a baton or a gun it is all the same. There is a reason "clubs" are prohibited from being carried under state law UNLESS you have been certified in their use. Carrying with a certification is an affirmative defense...not a "not get arrested" card. The only exception on this is if you pick up an improvised "club" and use it but we were discussing BYOC "bringing your own club".

Having said that , if you want to avail yourself of your right to get certified and carry an impact weapon, do so, but just be aware that civilians operate under different rules than cops with regards to using impact weapons. No lethal force used against you, no club for you.

  Again, cops use 'em because under state law they can use ANY and ALL force required to take people into custody....civilians can only use a commensurate amount of force to the force being used against them to repel the unlawful attack. So if even legally using a club requires that lethal force is first being used against you, then the club might not be the most appropriate tool to employ......

  

@Cruel Hand LukeQuite the book there, took me awhile to get through it lol. In any case, TN state law 39-17-1308 section 9 states:  

"(9) By any person possessing a club or baton who holds a certificate that the person has had training in the use of a club or baton for self-defense that is valid and issued by a certified person authorized to give training in the use of clubs or batons, and is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under any local, state or federal laws; "

In compliance with this law I've received training from an instructor certified with ASP to give such training. We were taught areas to target and areas to avoid. According to my instructor, If hard hands are used against you, i.e. throwing a punch, you can use your baton. But only targeting certain areas. If a lethal weapon like a gun or knife comes out all bets are off. 

There's also the aspect of just being comfortable with what you're carrying. I've trained in Filipino martial arts since 2010 so the use of a stick or knife comes more naturally than my gun which I've only been carrying a few months. I train as often as possible with the gun, dry practice and range time and a few classes, but the baton was the first EDC defense tool I ever carried.

If there are multiple assailants there's no way I'm pulling my baton. That's disparity of force and I'm pulling my gun. If it's a single assailant that is throwing punches and for some reason I can't leave I'll try pepper spray before going to baton. Bottom line is I like having multiple options and multiple levels of force available. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

TCA 39-17-1308  speaks to possession... not to use.....it merely gives the affirmative defenses for possession...not anything about use.

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon. 

 

I'm not an attorney and I'm guessing your instructor probably wasn't either. So you might want to get a second opinion from an actual attorney . After all he is going to be the one explaining why you were using a club against an unarmed opponent if you get arrested. Barring some disparity of force issue (big strong young guy vs old small, weak guy or multiple assailants) a civilian still can't use a weapon against an unarmed opponent....that is technically aggravated assault. Pepper Spray and Tasers are viewed differently as they are not considered lethal force. 

The certification is not an "its all OK now " card. It does not change the way the law looks at civilian use of force vs police use of force. While police can use a club to gain pain compliance civilians are held to a different standard. And while a cop CAN use a club on someone who punches him You as a civilian can still ONLY respond with a commensurate amount of force. The certification card merely gives you an affirmative defense to carrying that deadly weapon (club) on your person in public  . You will still have to use it within parameters of established state law and still have to explain why a reasonable person (who is not a cop) thought he needed to use a weapon against an unarmed opponent...and possibly explain it in front of a jury. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[A.J. Holst]

Prag at work

https://goo.gl/images/zeA0Tw

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Now THAT'S funny......

[Jamie Jackson]

Sometimes it enters my mind LOL  

[Spiffy]

On 11/17/2016 at 7:59 PM, prag said:

Sometimes it enters my mind LOL  

 

Why do you think we never got sick or hurt the days you were at matches.