Non lethal defence for wife

[Punisher84]

Edit: Not worth it.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Punisher84
Deleted entry

[ZenDog]

I got my wife a collapsible concealed lawyer for Christmas for when she goes jogging or goes to the mall. The lawyer goes with her everywhere. She feels much safer now. Those personal lawyers are a pain in the rear, especially when you are trying to carry one concealed, but they are definitely less than lethal. She's going to get certified to carry her concealed lawyer soon at Strangemaster here in Memphis.

She tried to open carry a lawyer, but it was too much hassle. The local cops got tired of responding to "Woman with a Lawyer" calls or "Lawyer with Briefs" calls from terrified residents, and even though it is legal to carry a lawyer openly into a bar, a lot of places have refused her service when she had her lawyer with her, citing liability issues.

So the collapsible concealed lawyer is, IMHO, the way to go in this case.

[Punisher84]

I got my wife a collapsible concealed lawyer for Christmas for when she goes jogging or goes to the mall. The lawyer goes with her everywhere. She feels much safer now. Those personal lawyers are a pain in the rear, especially when you are trying to carry one concealed, but they are definitely less than lethal. She's going to get certified to carry her concealed lawyer soon at Strangemaster here in Memphis.

She tried to open carry a lawyer, but it was too much hassle. The local cops got tired of responding to "Woman with a Lawyer" calls or "Lawyer with Briefs" calls from terrified residents, and even though it is legal to carry a lawyer openly into a bar, a lot of places have refused her service when she had her lawyer with her, citing liability issues.

So the collapsible concealed lawyer is, IMHO, the way to go in this case.

*sigh*

Edited January 1, 2009 by Punisher84

[Fallguy]

I would like to apologize to all, especially Punisher.

My actions were not in-line with a general member let alone a Mod.

I think of myself as normally able to carry on a debate and have a civilized discussion over a difference of opinion. However it seems this time I was not capable of that.

This is really too little too late and I understand.

I have stated my point and the reasons why and I will no longer keep on and on.

May this thread carry on in peace and harmony with out me.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I got my wife a collapsible concealed lawyer for Christmas for when she goes jogging or goes to the mall. The lawyer goes with her everywhere. She feels much safer now. Those personal lawyers are a pain in the rear, especially when you are trying to carry one concealed, but they are definitely less than lethal. She's going to get certified to carry her concealed lawyer soon at Strangemaster here in Memphis.

She tried to open carry a lawyer, but it was too much hassle. The local cops got tired of responding to "Woman with a Lawyer" calls or "Lawyer with Briefs" calls from terrified residents, and even though it is legal to carry a lawyer openly into a bar, a lot of places have refused her service when she had her lawyer with her, citing liability issues.

So the collapsible concealed lawyer is, IMHO, the way to go in this case.

nope... didnt you know there has been a recall on the collapsible concealed lawyer 3.0? We had one years ago... it gave us all kinds of trouble. In the most inopportune times it would spring into action. One time while driving down the road it intentionally tried to take control of the vehicle and cause me to be involved in an accident. Another time we were walking down the sidewalk in downtown Nashville when it expanded and tried to push me out in traffic. Both times we were saved by Fireman 4.2, Doctor 2.0 and Nurse 3.1 ....

We called Bar Tech support about the Lawyer and they ask if it was showing a $$$$ code, which they explained ment we needed to feed it. It was...

In the end we finally we decided carry all the baggage involved with Lawyer 3.0 was just too much of a hassle.

Edited January 1, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest Guntrainer]

Dear Fall Guy

You are absolutely right that ASP will say training Private Citizens is up to an Instructor. However, repeating my post,

"Oddly enough, Armament Systems and Procedures (ASP) will only train Law Enforcement and Private Protective Security at their training facility or on the road. They will NOT train Citizens or Civilian Trainers."

The company who makes and trains folks in the use of the expandable baton will not train a Private Citizen or Civilian Trainer.

I am learning real quick that daring to disagree with a LEO on this forum, current, or long retired, is an exercise in futility. Having worked with one for four years who has a problem with his language, I should have remembered the Law Enforcement Ego.

Daring to disagree with an all knowing LEO is a sure way to have them use their battleship mouth to protect their rowboat behind.

Have a nice day.

[Smith]

Police are private citizens/civilians. They are in NO way military. So any company or agency who says they only train LEO and not civilians/citizens are either self inflated egoist or ignorant.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Smith

[Punisher84]

Police are private citizens/civilians. They are in NO way military. So any company or agency who says they only train LEO and not civilians/citizens are either self inflated egoist or ignorant.

That statement is ignorant. Cops and military all go through specialized training and have powers the average civilian does not. If you want to sit there and tell me they are just like everyone else that's fine, but a sworn LEO is different from the average Joe on the street.

[Fallguy]

I don't think he meant LEOs don't have training that others don't. I think he was just refering to the term civilian.

Definitions of Civilian on the Web:

a nonmilitary citizen

associated with civil life or performed by persons who are not active members of the military; "civilian clothing"; "civilian life"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A civilian under international humanitarian law is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian

A person who isn't a member of the military armed forces; That which is not related to the military armed forces

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Civilian

Anyone not on active duty in the military.

www.agd.state.tx.us/rr/learn_guard_terms_glossary.htm

Private citizen, as distinguished from a person belonging to the armed services.

public.findlaw.com/library/pa-military-law.html

A citizen not part of the state through participation in the military or police force.

www.apheda.org.au/campaigns/burma_schools_kit/resources/1074040257_16812.html

persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.

www.bippi.org/bippi/menu_left/definitions.htm

Only one mentions police along with militaty as not being civilians and it is from Australia.

As far as powers, private citizens have arrest powers as well. LEOs are just paid for it.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Fallguy

[Guest canynracer]

colloquialism, the use of informal expressions appropriate to everyday speech rather than to the formality of writing, and differing in pronunciation, vocabulary, or grammar.

My point is that MOST folks use "civilian" to define you and me...and LEO to define cops.

[Fallguy]

colloquialism, the use of informal expressions appropriate to everyday speech rather than to the formality of writing, and differing in pronunciation, vocabulary, or grammar.

My point is that MOST folks use "civilian" to define you and me...and LEO to define cops.

That is why I had used civilian myself up to this point.

[Punisher84]

As far as powers, private citizens have arrest powers as well. LEOs are just paid for it.

I agree with all except that. A private non-leo citizen only has the power to detain a person while making a "citizen's arrest". They do not have arrest powers. Private citizens don't have to read miranda rights, book a suspect, etc.

It's not a huge difference, but there are technicalities.

[Fallguy]

I agree with all except that. A private non-leo citizen only has the power to detain a person while making a "citizen's arrest". They do not have arrest powers. Private citizens don't have to read miranda rights, book a suspect, etc.

It's not a huge difference, but there are technicalities.

Without getting into technical terms, I agree.

[Smith]

I agree with all except that. A private non-leo citizen only has the power to detain a person while making a "citizen's arrest". They do not have arrest powers. Private citizens don't have to read miranda rights, book a suspect, etc.

It's not a huge difference, but there are technicalities.

You might want to check that. You can not forcible detain in a citizens arrest IIRC. Arresting powers and custody powers are different. Can somebody explain the difference. I'm going on what my limited LE and HCP classes mentioned.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Smith

[Guest db99wj]

There was a incident here in Memphis, at a Schucks grocery, where this kid stabbed a few folks and was running around with a knife, and a HCP holder out in the parking lot, held or I guess detained him, at gun point IIRC, until the police showed up. He was a hero by the way, even by the media. I don't believe he arrested, but he sure as hell detained!!!

I have no idea either way, but I do remember that story, it happend a year or two ago.

[Punisher84]

You might want to check that. You can not forcible detain in a citizens arrest IIRC. Arresting powers and custody powers are different. Can somebody explain the difference. I'm going on what my limited LE and HCP classes mentioned.

You can use just about any force except for deadly force to effect a citizen's arrest. I work private security and do not have "arrest powers" so to speak, but I can tell you in the past 2 years I have fought with and physically detained several people and transferred them to Bartlett, Memphis, Millington, Tipton, and Shelby county authorities. You can do the same as a private citizen.

The way the law is written is that the citizen MUST witness the mideameanor or felony and if they detain the person they must transfer them to the custody of an LEO ASAP.

[Guest TheBadLuckCharm]

sabre pepper spray? anyone know if it's junk

(of course it says police use it) but do they really? or am I carrying hotsauce?

[Fallguy]

The way the law is written is that the citizen MUST witness the mideameanor or felony and if they detain the person they must transfer them to the custody of an LEO ASAP.

That's not exactly correct.

If it's a felony, it does not have to be witnessed by the person, althought I would say you are open for a lot of liabilty.

40-7-109 Arrest by private person — Grounds.

(a) A private person may arrest another:

(1)

For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

(2)

When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

(3)

When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

( A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to the provisions of §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

..and you could take them before a magistrate yourself.

40-7-113 Disposition of person arrested by private person.

(a) A private person who has arrested another for a public offense shall, without unnecessary delay, take the arrested person before a magistrate or deliver the arrested person to an officer.

( An officer may take before a magistrate, without a warrant, any person who, being engaged in the commission of a public offense, is arrested by a bystander and delivered to the officer, and anyone arrested by a private person as provided in §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-112, and delivered to the officer.

...and on the use of force

39-11-621 Use of deadly force by private citizen.

A private citizen, in making an arrest authorized by law, may use force reasonably necessary to accomplish the arrest of an individual who flees or resists the arrest; provided, that a private citizen cannot use or threaten to use deadly force except to the extent authorized under self-defense or defense of third person statutes, §§ 39-11-611 and 39-11-612.

On a felony you can even break in to a place if need be

40-7-112 Arrest by private person — Notice of intention to make arrest — Use of force to enter dwelling house.

If the person to be arrested has committed a felony, and a private person, after notice of the person's intention to make the arrest, is refused admittance, the arresting person may break open an outer or inner door or window of a dwelling house to make the arrest.

I AM NOT recomending any follow any course of action, this is simply posted for information sake.

[Smith]

I believe I was told that if you held someone at gunpoint it was a big no no. He told us we could use it to initiate the arrest but should put it away (without letting the BG know) ASAP. Of course this was a casual off topic conversation we were having, killing time.

[ZenDog]

sabre pepper spray? anyone know if it's junk

(of course it says police use it) but do they really? or am I carrying hotsauce?

I sprayed an aggressive pitbull with Sabre - he stopped dead in his tracks and walked away. I bought some more.

[Punisher84]

Fallguy's post is spot on. Nate, I think it would depend on the situation. Like the situation DBw99j described I think you'd be ok. Otherwise I'd hold them physically down, cuff them, or tie them up. Whatever it took depending on the situation. I did see 2 wal-mart guys zip-tie a guy's hands that punched one of them while trying to steal a computer a few years ago lol that was funny. He punched a member of the senior football team.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

sabre pepper spray? anyone know if it's junk

(of course it says police use it) but do they really? or am I carrying hotsauce?

its hot sauce... want the real thing get freeze +p

[deerslayer]

There was a incident here in Memphis, at a Schucks grocery, where this kid stabbed a few folks and was running around with a knife, and a HCP holder out in the parking lot, held or I guess detained him, at gun point IIRC, until the police showed up. He was a hero by the way, even by the media. I don't believe he arrested, but he sure as hell detained!!!

I have no idea either way, but I do remember that story, it happend a year or two ago.

My brother's friend's grandmother was one of the victims. I was thinking that the carry permit guy simply drew on the knife wielder and encouraged him to stop.

[Guest db99wj]

My brother's friend's grandmother was one of the victims. I was thinking that the carry permit guy simply drew on the knife wielder and encouraged him to stop.

I was thinking he held the guy at gunpoint until others grabbed him or the police came...will have to see if I can find the article. That was awhile ago...and I have slept..

[Guest db99wj]

Here is the article from USA Today, couldn't find it on the commercial appeal site, or other local news stations.

Eight stabbed in store near MemphisUpdated 8/7/2006 5:05 PM ETE-mail | Save | Print |

ARLINGTON, Tenn. (AP) — Eight employees were stabbed Friday by a co-worker at a Memphis suburban grocery store, and four were seriously injured, police said. The victims were identified only as six females and two males who worked at the Schnucks grocery.

Memphis Police Sgt. Vince Higgins said the man suspected in the attack was in custody after the incident that was reported at about 9:25 a.m. The suspect, whose name wasn't immediately released, was complaining of chest pains and was sent to the hospital.

The victims were identified only as six females and two males who worked at the Schnucks grocery. Higgins said officials hadn't determined a motive for the attack.

Three victims were in stable condition at St. Francis Hospital in Bartlett, a spokeswoman said. The others were sent to other area hospitals, and Higgins said four of them were in critical condition.

The suspect was tackled by a witness as he tried to run from the building and was held until officers arrived, Higgins said. However, according to later media reports, the suspect actually surrendered after another person at the scene pulled a handgun and pointed it at him.

Two large kitchen knives used in the attack were recovered at the scene, officer said.

The attack started in the manager's office and spilled out into the store, Higgins said.

"Our first priority is the customers and associates," Schnucks Markets Inc. spokeswoman Lori Willis said. She said officials from the St. Louis-based company were on their way to the scene.