Coastie

Glad this post got some interest and glad nobody is "shooting the messenger." I for one am learning a lot from the replies. :cheers:

"Documents reveal more about KPD switch in weapons - Pistol maker Glock surprised by complaints By Don Jacobs Sunday, March 3, 2013   When Knoxville Police Chief David Rausch announced in late January that the department would no longer use the .40-caliber Glock pistol that officers have carried since 2002, he didn’t mention any problems with the gun. Rausch said the replacement gun, a .45-caliber Sig Sauer, had more stopping power than the .40-calibers. Testing among officers also revealed they were more accurate using the Sig Sauer, he said. The chief said the switch was a sound financial decision because the life of a Glock was four years, while the Sig Sauer was good for 10 years. Although the Sig Sauer gun cost nearly twice as much as the Glock version, Rausch said the transition was a wise move. City documents, however, indicate other factors were at work — reasons Rausch did not address at that news conference. A letter from the city to Glock states that triggers were freezing on the guns after they were given to officers and lock pins that hold the 34 parts of the gun together were failing. KPD today won’t discuss the gun switch. The city’s claims of faulty weapons surprised Glock, which supplies more than 72 percent of all law enforcement agencies in the nation with guns. A representative said no other department has reported problems with the weapon. A poll of other departments using the .40-caliber Glock revealed no other agency has encountered problems with the gun as alleged by KPD. KPD spokesman Darrell DeBusk refused to say why the alleged performance problems were withheld from the public. “We’re not going to discuss the issues with the Glocks,” he said. “I’ll have to refer you to (Deputy Law Department Director) Ron Mills with any questions about the Glocks.” The Police Department is obtaining 225 of Sig Sauer’s .45-caliber P220R pistols, a dozen 1911 Sig Sauer handguns and training for 10 officers as armorers. In exchange, the Police Department is giving $13,500 cash, 630 .40-caliber Glocks, 53 12-gauge shotguns, four .22-caliber rifles, 14 submachine guns, six 37mm launchers, various gun parts and 300,000 rounds of new ammunition. Faulty firepower? Rausch did note performance concerns about the Glocks in an email Jan. 18 to individual members of Knoxville City Council. Because Rausch sent the email to individual members of council and not to the council as a whole, the email was not included in the meeting packet disseminated to members of council and the media. The email was not made part of the official record of the council meeting. The News Sentinel obtained the email Feb. 20 from the Police Department. In the email, Rausch told council members the Glock handgun “is replaced about every three years.” Rausch explained in his email the benefits of a more powerful weapon and the differences in how a Glock and a Sig Sauer operate. And he explained why his department began seeking another weapon. “In a shipment of what is now called the Next gen Glock, we received 10 weapons that would not fire properly new out of the box,” Rausch wrote. “This started our process of looking at alternatives as we cannot have our officers with weapons that may or may not function when they need them.” A News Sentinel article from January about KPD’s transition from the Glock caught the attention of law enforcement administrators across the nation. Administrators were concerned about Rausch’s statement that the Glock’s service life is four years. That statement prompted a wave of phone calls to Glock headquarters in Smyrna, Ga., from police agencies wondering about the life of their weapons, according to Carlos Guevara, vice president and general counsel for Glock USA. “When a large metropolitan police department makes that kind of statement, it carried some weight,” Guevara said. Guevara said Glock officials assured law enforcement agencies that “the gun will continue to work after five years.” Maker seeks answers Guevara on Jan. 28 sent a letter to Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero complaining about Rausch’s “false and misleading information” disseminated to the public. “The primary issue for us was the service life of the weapon,” Guevara said last week in an interview. “That was something we wanted to clarify. We warrant the piece for much longer.” Guevara’s letter prompted a response Feb. 4 from Mills, the deputy law director, who stated the four-year service life figure came from Glock’s local representative. The local Glock representative is Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributors, 8761 Chapman Highway. “If the information is incorrect, your problem lies somewhere other than with the Knoxville Police Department,” Mills wrote. Mills also outlined in the letter performance issues with the .40-caliber Glock. “Over the past two years, KPD has experienced repeated problems with locking pins breaking or falling out of these weapons, and four brand new handguns were found to have extremely stiff triggers,” Mills wrote. “After firing, these weapons froze up completely and could not be fired. All told, at least thirteen new GLOCK weapons out of approximately forty issued to KPD officers over the past two years failed shortly after issuance.” Mills wrote that a Police Department trainer saw a locking pin break on a Glock used by an officer from another agency at KPD’s firing range. “This is information that was not provided to the media, but could have been,” Mills wrote. ‘No further statements’ DeBusk said there is no documentation of the alleged Glock performance issues raised by Rausch and Mills. “All the conversations were over the phone or in person to make them aware of the issues, so there’s no written correspondence,” he said. Asked if the locking pin and trigger freeze issues were discussed with other officers in the department to alert them of potential problems, DeBusk refused to respond. Mills responded last week to a list of questions submitted regarding the Glocks and why the performance issues were kept from the public. “We have had a full and fair opportunity to share our concerns and issues related to our experience with representatives from Glock,” Mills wrote in an email. “We have agreed that the best course of action for both parties is to discontinue any further airing of concerns or grievances. Consequently, the City will be making no further statements or comments on this matter.” Mills said he has spoken to a Glock representative by telephone since his Feb. 4 letter, but he declined to divulge details of the discussion. Glock’s Guevara said his company was never informed of problems noted by the Police Department. “This was news to us,” Guevara said. Guevara said that if a department has a problem, a law enforcement risk manager is dispatched to correct any issues. “We send a company representative to the agency to find out about the problem. But we didn’t get that opportunity,” he said. In addition, Guevara said people at Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor denied making any statements about the three- or four-year service life of the .40-caliber Glock. A representative of Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor referred questions to the Glock national office. The Gen4 Glock, Guevara said, has been on the market since late 2009. “We don’t have any other agencies reporting this problem,” Guevara said. “Unless it’s reported, there’s no way to go looking for what happened.” Departments: no objections Public information officers for the Blount County Sheriff’s Office and the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, both of which use the .40-caliber Glock, reported no performance issues with the weapons. Bob Bossey, executive director of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, based in New Hampshire, said his organization represents 13,000 instructors in law enforcement, the military and corrections. “We haven’t had anybody bring that to our attention.” Bossey said of performance issues alleged by the Police Department. “There’s a lot of Glocks out there. They’re a good, quality weapon.” The executive director of the Tennessee Sheriffs’ Association, Terry Ashe, said he’s “not heard any complaint about the Glocks.” Ashe said he would be alarmed if he experienced the failure rate noted by the Police Department. “We’d be flagging it and sending out emails if that was the case,” he said. The Knox County Sheriff’s Office has been using the .40-caliber Glock since 2008 and has had no problems, according to Chief Robert Spangler, who oversees the agency’s training division. Spangler said he’s never been told of a service life for the firearms. The Police Department’s decision to switch to another gun manufacturer, Spangler said, is no different from one agency using the Chevrolet Caprice while another organization opts for the Dodge Charger. “It’s a personal choice and as long as the public is served, what does it matter?” he said. “I’ve been partial to the Glock because it’s always done what we wanted it to do,” Spangler said. “The thought of any officer pulling out a weapon and it malfunctions, that’s my worst nightmare. You want to give the officers tools they need to get home safely.”" http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/mar/03/documents-reveal-more-about-kpd-switch-in/?print=1

I thought I wanted the blued model out of military tradition. I fired a borrowed .22 blue target pistol at a black target at my carry class. I opted for the brushed nickel so I could see the sights. I agree on the weight. Not so heavy that I think it will be a problem for concealed carry. Doesn't feel like a cap gun and helps with accuracy.

I agree that a .38, .357, .45, 9 mm or .380 would be better knock down and I have an Army issue .45 but since the military or department is not providing ammo, I like .22 LR because of the cost of ammo. I need lots of practice! I may get something bigger when I get my marksmanship up.

Wouldn't have thought of a biker using a fanny pack but if a Marine biker does it, I don't question it. Semper Fi and Semper Paratus!

Thanks for asking the same question that I also needed answers! :up:Thanks for the responses too.

I was stationed in Baumholder on my last tour in Germany and went to Ramstein AFB twice a week for college classes. Good memories too!

He just quoted me $150 something plus sales tax and background. I wonder if they went up or he just likes you.

Thanks. I'm in Loudon County. I have a friend who will let me use his Beretta 22 or a 9 mm.

Good points! I have been reading about and thinking about moving up to a KelTec PF-9 Kel Tec CNC. Seems to be about the same size as PT 22 but uses 9 mm and if I want to save on ammo cost, I have a friend who reloads 9 mm.

Fired a friend's Beretta 21A this evening. Fired only about 50 rounds using old ammo. Had quite a few jams. Some caused by the old ammo and some by me slow firing trying for accuracy. I am going to need a lot of practice to get my meager skills back. The Ruger LCP would be good except for the difference in cost in ammo between .380 and .22LR. I am going to need a lot of ammo and practice before I take the carry class! Could get expensive with .45 or 9 mm just to get ready for class. Not to mention recreational shooting later.

Sounds good to me!

Thanks. Good to hear that!

Thanks for the quick info, guys. Ability to conceal and cost of ammo is higher on my priorities now than stopping power. I am not planning on getting into any gun fights. Just trying to get the scum's attention and that me and mine aren't to be messed with.

I am planning on buying a PT 22B Taurus International Manufacturing Inc for concealed carry and recreational shooting. I was 20 years in the military (Army and Coast Guard) and have been a civilian police officer. Even so my firearms knowledge is pretty limited to what I was issued or told I could carry. Same goes for the ammo. I have qualified on .38's, 9 mm, .45 cal handguns and various other weapons but I am not a marksman by any means. Never higher than marksman with handguns and sharpshooter with rifles, machine guns, etc. I like Taurus's safety features and repair warranty. I like the size, look, and low cost of ammo for the PT 22B. My 45 is better than a 22 in a lot of areas but not size and cost of ammo. Never had to before really care about being able to conceal or conceal very well or cost of ammo. I am going to take the handgun carry class in Tennessee and would not like to embarrass myself on the range. I have a military 45 but would like to use the PT 22 on the range since it is what I plan on carrying and ammo cost. It has been suggested that I use the 45 on the range because I would have a harder time qualifying with the PT 22. Is anyone familiar with the requirements to pass the range portion of the handgun carry class? Recommend a basic marksman to attempt with the PT22?