Red9MM

I would agree with the map above as far as the Southern states go., at least in 1861 this was true. I don't think any Southerner today would call Maryland or Deleware a member of the Southern brotherhood of states. Again Missouri...., I don't think people in St.Louis, Kansas City or Springfield would call themselves a Southerner do you? Oklahoma, I'll say...., Yeah, I guess so OK is OK with me. LOL Intresting that the area at the top of the map was called "BRITISH AMERICA" back then, which of course is CANADA today. I'm a huge History and Geography buff and I don't ever recall seeing the area of modern day Canada refered to as "British America" on any map before. Learn something new every day.

Yer most welcome Enfield! <passes bowl of grits> Here ya go! Don't fergit to add the butter and sugar to taste! Theres endless ways to accessorize yer grits; honey, cheese, cinnamon, spoon of gravy, and on and on. Its kinda like picking what to hang off the rails of yer AR. Everyone will have an opinion of whats right and WRONG for yer grits. xspear-a-mints to find find yer own! Most of that little "wiki article" LOL I posted is IMO and meant tounge firmly in cheek. the part about what states are the South is just from discussion I 've had with fellow southerners over the years and is not by any means authoritative. I know many folks that will raise all kinds of hell over the inclusion of KY an WV and more so on the OK/MO point. They will die fighting to the last on that hill of "If they didn't fight for the South,(aka CSA) they aint the South. My rationale is WV was part of VA at the start of the War between the states and many parts of KY did vote to seceed and fought with the CSA troops. But more than anything else is that they ,for the most part, do consider themselves a Southern state and have the Southern Ways. OK was Indian Terrritory during the Civil War but aligned with the South. and ask an Okie if he's a southerner or Yankee and Most will tell ya "I sure as Hell ain't no Damn Yankee!" LOL

There is a Letherwerks store in Knoxville. It's next to Parafrog Airsoft. Behind the Hardee's in that shopping center where Office Depot is on Kingston Pike. Randy's Guns and Knives on Broadway in Fountain City had a broad selection of Leather holsters when I was ther a couple months ago. Didn't notice the belts selection but might be worth a call. And as mentioned above Greene's Military/Tactical/Police Supply on Kingston Pike has a big selection of Police gear. Good Luck finding what you're seeking.

A Proper Definition and Interpretation of "The South" and "Southern" follows the following geographical boundaries: For the states East of the Mississippi River, The SOUTHERN states are those; South of the Ohio River, South of the Potomac River, Therfore those states that we correctly identify as SOUTHERN are: from the East to West, North to South Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida AND West of the Mississippi River: The SOUTHERN states are; - The 3 states, West of the Mississippi River, that were member states of the Confederate States of America during the War of Northern Agression. Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas NOTE: Some folks argue for the inclusion of Oklahoma (or even Missouri ). I remain somewhat divided on the matter but will concede and allow (the idea) that the peoples of those states should choose to "opt in" as Southerners or otherwise to be considered "opted out". Although I would probably support a default "opted in" Oklahoma. THERFORE: -IF YOU were blessed enough to be born in the Promised Land that includes the States listed above, "You are a Southerner by birthright"; AND /OR If after suffering the misfortune of an unfortunate birthplace you were by grace and/or providence, relocated to the Promised Land of the South ; AND -Live your Lifestyle according to the temporally adjusted, customs, traditions, attitudes, and manners, also and otherwise know as "The Ways", of the native born and blessed peoples of those Southern states, AND; -Foreswear, by your adherence to the "The Ways" above , and abandonment of the hateful, high handed, and heathern ways of those misfortunate souls living in the outlands and badlands of the remainder of North America (those not included in the listed haven lands of the South, and therefore by choice or misfortune are "Northern"), THEN; - If you are a Southern states Native; You are practicing the sacred rites and arts of our forefathers and mothers and most certainly living like and ARE A SOUTHERNER! (If not you may be and probably are a "Yankee Poser!" A most low form of living quickly identidifed by an addiction to TV shows like "Jersey Shore" and "Real HOuSewives of New York/Orange County/Beverly Hills" and fantasies of being a cast member next season.) -Non-Natives Continue below; -IF by, and thru, the conscious agreement of the native elect by whose regular presences you are graced, are living in accordance to the Ways described above, then they might confirm that, y'all might be considered an adapted and adopted "Southerner"! Instead of just some Damn Yankee! This coveted title can be accquired but certainly not thru y'all selecting it for yourself. It is a Title of Honor to be vigilantly upheld by you. For Unfortunately it can be revoked for those "adoptees" that become hopelessly backslidden into their former "Yankee Ways." In Eastern Tennesse a quick "field test" for suspected Yankeeness (or otherwise foreignness) is: -Proper pronounciation of the following place names: Maryville, Oak Ridge, LaFollete, Luttrell. -Proper pronounciation of these words and simple phrases: Tire, Fire, Car, Neyland, Did You Eat Yet?, Where is my car parked? -The correct identification of the following: When is correct time of day for each of the following: a. Dinner, b.Supper, c. Football -Possession of any of the following: Paraphenalia associated to any "Big 10", "PAC 10" or "Ivy League" school is considered caught red-damn-handed. -Rejection of an offer of a meal that includes any of the following: Grits, Pinto Beans and Cornbread, Country Ham (with or without the option of red-eye gravy), Fried Chicken twice in the same day, or Sweet Iced Tea ! Failure of any of these simple tests will result in issue of the following verbal citation: Y'all ain't from around here, now are ya? These are the results caused by "Yankeeness". A SERIOUS, but not necessarily life threatening, condition easily reversible, but usually Terminal. If you are issued the above citiation by a Southerner consider it a call to repentance from your Yankee ways! No One knows how much time they have left. Cross over now. Just as y'all are. Other regions of the South have there own standards. The above information may be used as a handy reference for self identification and field identification of what correctly is and is not "Southern" or the "The South" and was posted at all checkpoints along the borders and ports of entry in the South until some Damn Yankee, offended and embaressed by the facts, came along back when and sneakily had them removed during a SEC Super Saturday when all attention in the South was properly focused on the more important matters of the day. No matter though. We still know who the Hell y'all are! LOL!!!

Hmmm, Interesting.... Consider this possibility; Glock G20, 10mm with a 15rd. magazine firing as a CCU shoulder fired carbine with a 16" barrel. (or a 1911 framed 10mm, but with less magazine capacity) Wonder what the chronograph would read at the muzzle of a 16.25" stainless steel, button rifled barrel ?? My 2010 Winchester ammo brochure shows the following for: 10mm Automatic, 175 grain Silvertip HP, MV=1290fps , ME=649ft/lbs from a 5 1/2" bbl. measured at the muzzle. I suspect it would have VERY intersting results on a target, lets say a steel plate, @ 50yds. or possibly out to 100yds. Not sure how this would translate as far as accuracy with predictable ballistics for this round, or other pistol caliber rounds, past 50 yds. or so from this CCU platform. Could be a fun day at the range with something like this.

+1

On the " nearest OD range to Lenoir City/Loudon?" question. There's always the Norris PD Range. $40 from now until June 30, 2011. All current range passes expire that day. Every July 1st Everyone needs a new range pass and has to re-up with another $40. That range pass is good until June 30, 2012. Many ET/ 865 area code TGO shooters go there pretty regularly. approx. 200 yd. Rifle/Shotgun range several lanes & 25 yd. Pistol range 4 Lanes. Check the "Events and Get Together's" section for announcements of ppl. getting organized (??? ) for shoots there. Very close to Norris Dam if you're familiar with that. from LC take I-75N, to exit 122, Hwy 61 . 865-494-0881 (Norris Police Department) for full info. ORSA, Oak Ridge Sportsmen's Association. see " ORSA Home Page " for info $120 a year membership required I think. Pretty nice facilities, regular matches, a 1000 yd. Hi-Power rifle range, pistol ranges, IDPA, etc... A few of the ET folks here on TGO shoot there from what I've seen in posts. Off of Hwy 95 (Oak Ridge Turnpike) near the Roane/ Anderson County line. (Not very far East of the old K-25 DOE plant). From LC, 75N to 40W, exit 364, Hwy 95 (go N towards ORNL/Y-12 Plants) to Hwy 95/58 junction then E on Hwy 95 (OR Turnpike) towards "downtown" Oak Ridge. The TWRA range off of Rifle Range Road in North Knoxville is another option. " Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency - John Sevier Hunter Education Center " and and the "Volunteer Rilfle & Pistol Club" that shoots there " http://www.vrpc.info/ " I think there are also some ranges in Kingston and Athens but I'm not familiar with them at all. Here's a site for more TN range info. " Tennessee Gun Firing Ranges Archery Range Rifle Pistol Shooting " Good Luck and now go find a place to shoot that bad boy!

On that Indoor Range in ET thing, FOR A RIFLE try Gunny's in Maryville. (Coal Creek Armory off Lovell Rd. in W.Knoxville and Frontier Firearms in Kingston on Hwy 58 are "Pistol Only" from what i know bout them no Rifle or shotgun allowed. Except possibly 22LR @ CCA) Gunny's in Maryville, It's not 50 yd. indoor range, but a brochure I picked up there lists; "25 yd range. 8 pistol & 4 Rifle Lanes" I think you can actually shoot up to .30 cal in there, they have an AK on the wall for rent, so maybe so. It's not far from LC going up Hwy.321. But they're actually off E. Broadway about 1 mi from where it intersects with the Pellissipi Parkway extension. I haven't shot there myself. Maybe someone else can give feedback on it. 865-223-3471 if you're interested. Looking forward to a range report. I've been looking at the BCM hardware myself, and I applaude your research on this and sharing the info. Thanks

Knoxville, West Knoxville, Knox County, NW Knox County, Karns, actually To all who share the 865 and the Great VOLunteer State: To all of us who go TGO:

-OS Yeah I should have come up with something better for the comparison. But I didn't want to prowl the state websites looking for fee charges and I was trying to find a commonly issued/well known state fee people could relate too on a cost camparison/ risk comaprison. What would you suggest instead and I'll edit it. Red9MM

Jeff, That is just Plum Purtyful !! Hope she enjoys it. If she don't It sound like you could have a few fish above circling for it if it goes WTS

My Opinion on the OP, and I may in a minority on this but I'm very glad for the class requirement for HCP here in TN. My TN HCP (Handgun Safety Course) was very well done. I hope others received competent, thorough instruction as well. My class was $110 including range fee. It also included the NRA Basic Pistol course integrated with all the state required elements. Others elsewhere in the state may not. I learned a good deal about the laws surrounding carrying, , CC/OC, going armed, "No Handgun Carry Permitted" sites like schools and courthouses and how the law addresses self-defense situations, Castle doctrine, and interfacing with LEO's when carrying, Oh, and Basic Pistol Marksmanship training. I've also learned a great deal about those things here on TGO thru the knowlege, links and resources shared by others. To me its equivalent to getting your Drivers License and the requirement to pass a test to demonstrate understanding and operator competence is easily justified. I support this part of our process because while I am a shooter and firearms enthusiast a great many people who own a handgun are not and aren't intrested in the aspects of safety, training, knowledge of firearms the and "practice how you shoot and shoot how you practice" mindset of many here. Therefore I DO NOT want an uninformed/ill informed, untrained, UNSAFE populace carrying loaded pistols around "just because". This scenario opens a HUGE RISK of (even more) senseless tragedies involving firearms becoming commonplace in our society. Like my drivers license comparison above, untrained and unlicensed drivers on our roads are unsafe and a huge risk to the general public, an untrained & unlicensed person carring a loaded gun around is as well. I do fully support our Second Amendment rights and (responsible) firearms freedoms for our citizenry. I support that even moreso with a trained, informed, and involved society of gunowners practicing SAFE FIREARMS OWNERSHIP and USAGE principles. Letting anyone who can pay the price and Pass the TICS check carry loaded firearms around anytime without boundaries does not come close to making good sense to me. The TDOS fee (not a tax) of $115 for the HCP is a bit steep but the many phases of the process and those that provide the services for fingerprinting, background checks, permit production and recordkeeping, etc... all take pieces of that pie. My guess would be that the state might profit $20 in the end. The Higher fees may be because of A MUCH higher risk involved! Carrying a loaded hangun in public for 4 yrs. $115 vs. Drivers License renewal for 5yrs @ $19.50. Would I like to see a lower fee for the initial HCP? Sure! It would help me and help others who do have a more meager income than mine to become responsible (hopefully) handgun carrier's for their personal protection needs. Doing this would require cost cuts which is fine, but not at the expense of gutting a process that finally seems to be working as well as any state program could be expected to, OR increasing risks to the publics safety by removing measures put there to safeguard Tennesseans and others via our reciprocity agreements with other states. Which might void their agreements due to a boneheaded move "to cut costs". IF IT AIN"T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. IMO, It aint broke. I applied for my permit last Oct. 29 and got my permit in the mail Nov. 19. Less than a month, 21 days actually. I know many here had to wait several months in 2008/2009 for their HCP to arrive. I'm sorry that was the case for them. Pro-Carry / Carry Friendly TN.... I support more TRAINED, INFORMED, and (hopefully) INVOLVED HCP Permitted citizens (with propper vetting) here in TN and the US but NOT a Wild West Free for All of anyone who wants to be allowed to "Go Armed" with a Wink and a Nod.

We Went to the O'Charleys @Turkey Creek. Had a Sirloin and Ribs combo. Wife had Prime Rib Pasta. Daughter went old school; PrimeRib, Loaded Bake Tater, and Salad. Then we went to See TRON in 3D @ the Regal Pinnacle. Nice way to wrap up the year I think. New Years Day (after I get back from the Gun Show @ Chillhowee Park) will be Baked Smithfield Ham, Black eyed peas, Spinach for the Greens and Mashed up Taters, Ice Tea, and Cornbread!

Going Saturday AM with my future Son-in-Law about 0930-1000. Happy New Year to all from W. Knox/ Karns !!! I hear the sounds of celebratory gunfire in the near distance. Y'all be careful out there y'hear!

Thats Freakin hilarious! ..."Go Dog Fort! GO!!"