Fallguy

I am NOT talking about showing your HCP. I know the thread has got a bit long, but in Post 6 I said you must show you HCP upon demand of a LEO. In Post 37 I went so far to say, even if you were on your own property and asked to show a HCP you have to if you have one. I am talking about standing on the sidewalk (unarmed) minding my own business and being asked for ID. If there is a lawful reason he needs to see it..fine I have no problem. (I do admit he may have one that I'm not aware of and he may choose not to tell me). Or if they knock on my door at 9:00pm and want to search my house for no apparent reason...I will say no. If they have a good reason, they can get a judge to issue a warrant. I don't have anything illegal (that I know of at least) in my home, but that doesn't mean I want anyone searching through it. If I was a thug and had something illegal, despite what you see on TV, most of the times it isn't going to make a difference if you let them search and/or tell them where it is or if you make them get a warrant. Since there is no right to carry in TN (as another member always says, and I agree) if I am armed I will always show my HCP upon request without any problem.

Looks like you're not planning on carrying, but to be a bit more clear... 39-17-1306 says it is illegal to carry in any room where a judicial proceeding is taking place. So that doesn't automatically mean courtrooms if a county commission meeting is going on and it does mean a hospital room if a hearing or deposition is taking place. So no matter the room if just selection or anything to do with a jury is going on...it would be a safe bet that is a judicial proceeding and illegal to carry wherever it occurs.

I'm all for obeying any lawful command/order from a LEO. I'm also not for giving them any grief, or being disrespectful. However, if they make a request of me and I don't have a lawful reason to comply and choose not to (not saying that is what I would always do, just depends), I'm not sure how that is giving anyone grief.

From what I read it's just within the last 4 years. From ORS 166.291 I hereby declare as follows: I am a citizen of the United States or a legal resident alien who can document continuous residency in the county for at least six months and have declared in writing to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services my intention to become a citizen and can present proof of the written declaration to the sheriff at the time of this application. I am at least 21 years of age. I have been discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for more than four years if, while a minor, I was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act that, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470. I have never been convicted of a felony or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a felony in the State of Oregon or elsewhere. I have not, within the last four years, been convicted of a misdemeanor or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a misdemeanor. Except as provided in ORS 166.291 (1)(L), I have not been convicted of an offense involving controlled substances or completed a court-supervised drug diversion program. There are no outstanding warrants for my arrest and I am not free on any form of pretrial release. I have not been committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130, nor have I been found mentally ill and presently subject to an order prohibiting me from purchasing or possessing a firearm because of mental illness. If any of the previous conditions do apply to me, I have been granted relief or wish to petition for relief from the disability under ORS 166.274 or 166.293 or 18 U.S.C. 925© or have had the records expunged. I am not subject to a citation issued under ORS 163.735 or an order issued under ORS 30.866, 107.700 to 107.735 or 163.738. I have never received a dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces of the United States. I am not required to register as a sex offender in any state. I understand I will be fingerprinted and photographed. http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html

You are correct that in those places you do not need a permit. But...the law that says you must show your permit upon demand of a LEO doesn't make an exception for where you are. This was discussed in a thread where a home owner held a robber at gun point until the police arrived at her home, when they did arrive and secured the guy one officer asked her if she had HCP and asked to see it. Did she need one? No But he asked. Odds are you wouldn't be asked on your own property, but if you are, looks like you have to show it if you have it. If you don't have one...well guess that is good too.

You HCP while carrying or ID for no apparent reason?

TN does not have a "stop and identify" law. So "in general" if you are just walking down the street and not suspected of anything, you don't have to show ID. But also, in TN carrying a weapon is a crime. If you are OCing it is obivious to the officer....so as far as he know you are breaking the law until he detains you and verifies you have a valid permit. So when he ask you for your permit, Yes, you must hand it over.

Apparently that's not always true...... http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/64510-memphis-papa-johns-pizza-delivery-driver-shoots-would-robber.html

Considering those with a HCP can have a firearm in their car now and those without a HCP can not, I don't think just adding parking lots has that much to do with the "castle doctrine". I mean even if a company has a policy against keeping your handgun in your car, it's not against the "law" unless the parking lot is posted. Also (and I could be wrong) I think it would be easier to get vehicle carry without a HCP than it will be to force property owners to allow weapons in vehicles. At least as long as FedEx and some other large companies fight it, not that it isn't worth us fighting for of course. I think we both want the same thing...so I appolgize for focusing on the term "castle doctrine" just a pet peeve of mine. It means different things to different people. Of course that is the main reason I think it can be confusing...lol Well as I said...LEOs don't usually (not even sure they can) run a complete background check when they have you stopped as it is now. I'm not sure that would change even if carry without HCPs became legal. As running criminal background checks through NCIC is regulated by the FBI, not the state, so even a state law couldn't change that. Unfortunately as the law is now, it is a LEOs business if you are carrying, because possession of firearm is illegal in TN. Being on your property, it being unloaded and having a HCP are just some of the defenses to that charge. So until carry is legal without a permit, as far as they know you are committing a crime until they can check your permit.

Yeah right up until he needs it and the Bad Guy won't wait long enough to let him run to his safety deposit box.

On #1 I think you are talking about a "parking lot" bill. Which IMO doesn't really have anything to do with the "castle doctrine" but I admit it is a term I really don't like when talking any one specific law... I wouldn't mind seeing a parking lot bill, but one thing I'd really like to see is the ability for those without a HCP to have handgun in their car. Since your car is supposed to be just like your house and the presumption of fear if someone tried to break in. On #2 Not sure I fully understand... AFAIK when you are stopped by a LEO checking the person for wants or warrants is about all they are able to do. It takes a lot more trouble to run a criminal history check on someone...and you have to have a valid investigatory reason, not just a traffic stop. Now if you mean when they are checking for getting a HCP, I don't necessarily disagree, but that is because IMO we shouldn't need a permit to carry in the first place.

Anyone within arms reach of it has constructive possesion...and if they didn't have a HCP if one wanted to make a case of it, they could...or at least get it started. That said... As long as you are in the car too, there shouldn't be a problem.

The second "what if" started with talking about shooting at a dog across a fence with a BB gun...not trying to steal a dog or if someone was trespassing on your property and the dog was involved. There are always many variables that hard to think of and judge when we talk about "what ifs" but I was mainly talking about the "maiming" he was talking about...you can't even use deadly force to protect a person from being maimed unless it falls under one of the definitions of serious bodily harm.

Well then you are not using your pistol to defend your dog as stated in your first post. If something ever happens...I'd be careful not to make that slip when giving your statement to the police....

Wow...what a roller-coaster Best of luck Jeff

He gave you bad advice that if you follow will land you in prison. First...you HCP has you covered for what? HCPs are just so you can lawfully carry a handgun off your property, they have nothing to do with the laws on use of force. Also the law is clear...the intentional killing of an animal is theft and you can not use deadly force to protect property. Even if someone shot your dog on your property in front of you...as far as the law is concerned, it is the property crime of theft. Now if someone shot at your dog while it was at your side and you could make others reasonably feared for YOUR life (NOT the dogs) then you might be justified under self-defense. But no way under defense of a third-party.

The only difference the law makes for a Police Dog (or Fire Dog, search and rescue dog, service animal or police horse) is that in addition to the cost of the animal, the cost of any specialized training is to be considered when determining the level of theft for the killing of the animal. T.C.A. 39-14-205 LexisNexis® Custom Solution: Tennessee Code Research Tool

Ummm...people...I have had dogs that I was very close to as well.... But as far as the law goes, they are property. You can't use deadly force against a human to protect an animal.

Well done sir!!

When I first made that post...I meant as the law is now (having to have a HCP to carry) it is easier for a LEO to check who can legally carry or not, since if you don't have a HCP in general you can't carry. But as far as checking criminal history is not quite as easy as checking their DL. Also there has to be a reason to check it...if carry without a permit was legal, then just because they are armed is no reason to suspect them of breaking the law and probably not a good enough reason to run a criminal history check. Unless things have changed a LEO has to come in and sign a log stating the reason why among other things for a criminal history check to be run. Also this is the one thing the TBI (TN's official NCIC contact point) reviews and checks pretty closely.

Well I don't think the question on the handout limits it to traveling though IL but applies even if IL if your final destination. All that said I agree that they can do about anything they want it seems as local ordnance are not preempted by state law. If it was me and I wanted to bring my handgun while staying there I would contact the ISP for advice and try to get a formal letter if they said it was ok. Plus check about any local ordnances where I would actually be staying...

From the IL State Police http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/1-154.pdf CAN I KEEP A FIREARM IN MY HOTEL ROOM WHEN I TRAVEL? Yes, assuming no local ordinance applies. The critical question is how the firearm was carried into the room and transported in a vehicle. Those actions must be done lawfully.

39-17-1309 clearly says it applies to both public and private institutions.... ...and "carry" pretty much means on your person, but you are correct in that "possession" doesn't have to be on your person.

At the risk of continuing any possible hijack.... County and/or city wheel tax really doesn't have anything to do with the law..at least not into relation to interpretation. Some cities and counties charge it...some don't. Those that do there are different amounts. I don't see how that how that has to do with interpretation of the law. Also exactly how are you able to choose which county you buy tags in? Even if you live in a city that is in two or more counties, your residence is only in one county and that is supposed to be the county you by tags from...at least so I thought. I know I have seen news stories about some counties cracking down on residents buying tags from other counties because it was cheaper. So guess it could be done...but don't think you are legally supposed to.

If it's his private home, I wouldn't think so... I don't think just making a school related call or two makes it used for school purposes. Although I admit I could see some DA trying to prosecute it if they really wanted to. If it is a home owned by the university.....then yeah, technically looks like it would be a violation.