Fallguy

Responding to this from my iPhone to see if I can.

Hmmmm I have to admit after a bit more thought I have modified my position a bit. 39-17-1351 (The HCP privilege law) does clearly say if you have a HCP and are armed a LEO may disarm you if he feels it is necessary for safety reasons. He can't do this (easily) unless you tell him where it is. So I have to agree with Dave if you don't allow him to disarm you, you have violated a provision of 39-17-1351 and could have your HCP suspended/revoked under 39-17-1352 Also I agree with others that you will not win any legal debate/argument on the side of the road. But some of this goes back to how does the topic of HCP/Firearms come up in the first place? If you are they type to hand over your HCP without even being asked for it....you are more than likely the type that would tell him where it is and allow him to disarm you. If you are they type that doesn't volunteer you have a HCP and the LEO doesn't ask for it or about firearms, then the topic never comes up. So no question, no need to answer, no search. ...and Yes...I do know your HCP is tied to your DL and the LEO will know you have a HCP from running your DL, but this still doesn't mean he will ask. I can tell you this from personal experience and reference several post on this board.

I agree..... assuming he knows you are armed....

Wisconsin Carry and Madison Five awarded $10,000 judgment against City of Madison/Madison PD

If you're drunk and the officer has PC to believe your drunk, then yes there are consequences for violating the implied consent law. The implied consent law is on the books and is there for all to see. Yes, the law says I must produce my HCP if asked for it, but I do not see the law that says there are consequences for not answering a LEOs question of if I have weapon, whether I have a HCP or not. Also I don't see anywhere where I have waived my 5th amendment right just because I have a HCP. Are you saying someone without a HCP could refuse to answer with no consequences for just not answering but if the same question is asked to someone with a HCP there are legal consequence? I'll grant that it is not beyond the realm of possibility the DOS would suspend/revoke your HCP if they some how found out, but that is not what I'm talking about. I am also not talking about if the officer has PC to search and finds the weapon. IMO (FWIW) I don't think having a HCP is PC enough on it's own to conduct a search for weapons...but again I admit I could see a judge ruling that it was. Also just for the record...I would not lie to the officer, I also would not let him "discover" any firearm...whether I thought it was right or wrong, if he was going to search I would tell him there is one and where it is or if I thought it might be seen somehow in plain view.

I thought I heard somewhere you didn't have to answers questions that may incriminate yourself....

You can get a HCP....just don't hand it over with your DL like some do...

^^^What he said^^^ excepet that a HCP is a defense, not an exception. Some laws have exceptions and some defenses. While they may seem similar they are not. An exception means the law does not apply if you meet the criteria of the exception. A defense is just that...as defense. You are still violating the law, you just have a defense against it. Having a HCP is just a defense, not an exception, to 39-17-1307. So if he wants to search...I guess he pretty much can. Just another way in which our laws are worded don't jive with Article 1, Section 26 of the TN Constitution.

Seems like I remember a situation where an instructor/school was just selling the certificates with no class at all. May or may not be the same place.

Glad she is ok.... Everyone should always be aware of their surrondings....good to get a remider from time-to-time

Well the class was never intended to teach you self-defense techniques. It's supposed to be a basic safety class. When the HCP law first passed they thought there may be people getting a HCP that have never handled a handgun, so thought some basic familirization and safety trainging first might be a good idea. As far as ticket being punched....my personal opinion is you shouldn't need a HCP in the first place...

I bet one reason they are only talking about "workplace" parking lots is because the majority of them don't know they have a law that allows all parking lots to be posted....

From videos on the internet and some TV shows, in some states I'm not sure waiting to hand over your permit with your DL would be informing quick enough. It appears some states and/or LEOs want you tell them as they are walking up very first thing.

It's not that bad... Yes, they will know you have a HCP, but not necessarily that you are armed...as you may not be. I know several people with a HCP that don't carry on a regular basis. If they ask after running your DL, answer...no biggie. I was stopped a couple of years ago, didn't inform, officer ran my DL, came back, gave me my ticket and we both went on our way. Having HCP or firearm was never mentioned by either of us..... Now that is not to say I would never inform, because I have...it all depends on the situation. As far as the original question...I think it was pretty much answered in post 3

39-11-106(a)(34) defines serious bodily injury as that involves: (A) A substantial risk of death; ( Protracted unconsciousness; © Extreme physical pain; (D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement; (E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or (F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;

Sort of what I figure...

Good questions, but I would assume so. (Of course we know what assuming does)

It doesn't affect us directly, but there is an AG opinon about LEOs and firearms...you know they can carry their firearms at a school (the law doesn't specify K-12 and/or college) as long as they notify the principal they are on the campus. The AG has opined that since the law uses the word "principal" and that title is generally associated with K-12 schools and not those of higher education a LEO need not notify the head of a university/college that they are on campus.

Yeah...99.9% sure it was a rule. I remember it being called a "rule chage" when it happened...

What he said....

Well said on each part...

Off course I'm calling 911....I'm just not going to treat their wounds. When we were talking about giving aid, I didn't think we were talking about making a phone call, but actually giving aid...

I agree, on the street etc....I'm going to help someone if I can. I was just wanting to say IMO there is no legal obligation to do so....so that when/if there's an injured intruder in your home...you are under no legal obilgation to help them.

I have looked at the Board of Nursing policies and their rules (Tennessee Department of Health: Board of Nursing Statutes, Rules, and Policies & 1000 Tennessee Board of Nursing) as with the HCP law...there is a "catch all" rule about "unprofessional conduct". One thing that would constitute unprofessional conduct is "patient abandonment" (see pg 18 of the "Position Statement" under Polices) But for patient abandonment to have occurred the very first thing it says is the nurse must "Have first accepted the patient assignment, thus establishing a nurse-patient relationship" Accepted being underline is their doing, not mine. So if the nurse can accept a patient assignment to me that would mean they could refuse and/or not accept one. I wouldn't see how driving by a wreck establishes a nurse-patient relationship. Now I completely agree if a nurse has stopped and started to render aid....she can't just up and leave without giving care over to someone else or making some sort of arrangements for continued care. On down in the Position Statement it says "Failure of a nurse to work beyond her/his scheduled work shift will not constitute patient abandonment as defined by the Board. Also refusal to accept an assignment or a nurse-patient relationship and failure to notify the employing agency that the nurse will not appear to work an assigned shift is not considered patient abandonment by the TBN." Just to note, there is a rule that says they can not discriminate based on "race, age, sex, religion, national origin, or the condition of the patient" (Rule 1000-01-.13(p) for Rn's; Rule 1000-02-.13(p) for LPN's) I don't doubt instructors have or still do tell there students they can't drive by an accident, but IMO (which is worth nothing) nothing in the law or The Tennessee Board of Nursing rules/regulations/policies requires them to render aid to someone that have not chosen to begin nurse-patient relationship with as long as they don't discriminate for any of the above reasons.

I'm not necessarily doubting this, but is there a place where one can see this duty to act spelled out? I am an EMT, other than when I am on duty...I have no "legal" duty to act, I could (if I chose to) drive right by an accident and would not have any legal liability. This is taught in the first class or two of EMT school. Of course not sure how anyone seeing me drive by would know I'm an EMT or even if they did, how they would know who I am to file any suit...but anyway. (Just to note there is a law that requires anyone who is first on the scene of an accident to stop and render what aid they are able to.) My mother was a RN for 40+ years and I never heard her mention anything like have a "legal" duty to act in such scenarios as above. One thing to remember only Medical Doctors can legally practice medicine. Every Nurse, Paramedic, EMT etc.... is acting under the authority of some MD somewhere. The only reason I can do what I do at work is because or Medical Director has signed off on a list of Standing Orders on what to do in situations. If I do anything not allowed in those standing orders, without direct authorization, I would be liable for malfeasance. It may seem nurses are doing things independently in a hospital, but they are not, everything they do that would be considered as practicing medicine was ordered by some doctor.