RobertNashville

I guess, then, that if South Fulton FD hadn't showed up at all we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I've heard different things from different sources so I don't know what is or isn't true - it would certainly be a more tragic event if he did simply "forget" to pay the fee but the salient point is whether or not the fee was paid.

Saving a person’s life by providing emergency medical care is not the equivalent to saving a piece of property - that's the apple to the orange. And at least in some cases, the person who got the medical care will be billed for it. It wasn't the fire fighter's job to respond outside of the city limits to a home unless the homeowner had paid for that service. Those first responders work for a city and they are able to work for that city only because the city collects taxes from residents so that they have a fire department - in that sense they are no different from Geico or any other company. With some of the logic being presented in this thread we could hold any of the close-by Kentucky based fire departments responsible for not responding as well as South Fulton FD because the Kentucky based FDs had as much obligation to respond as Sough Fulton did (which is none). I live in a community that has a fire department and part of my rather hefty property taxes goes to pay for the existence of that fire department so yes, if my home catches fire I expect them to respond and try to put it out - that's what I pay them for. If I lived in an area where I was not paying for that service than I would not expect them to respond. Mr. Cranick knew, up front, that he had to pay the fee and, by all accounts, the fee wasn't paid...whether he forget to pay or decided not to pay; if the fee wasn’t paid he wasn’t entitled to the protection. I feel badly that Mr. Cranick lost his home and his animals but not paying the fee, for whatever reason, was irresponsible and when when people are irresponsible; unpleasant things sometimes happen. It's fine to feel sad or even angry about that but the fire department is not where the anger should be directed.

I'll never be ashamed of myself for believing that people should be responsible for themselves. In any case, your example is an "apples and oranges" comparison...this man knew his responsibilities and consciously chose to ignore them.

Actually...his story about paying, not paying, why he didn't pay, fee getting waived, etc., etc. has changed more than once and it really isn't the point - "forget" to pay for your car for very long and you won't likely won't have it (nor are you entitled to it).

I don't have the Constitution memorized but I am pretty sure that there isn't anything in it that says a person is entitled to anything without paying for it. This man freely chose not to participate in the opportunity to have fire protection (perhaps for as long as a couple of decades based on some recent information) so why in hell is he entitled to to the protection anyway? What right does anyone have, especially people who don't live there, to berate that fire department for not acting when they had zero obligation to act? I wonder if this man had homeowner's insurance or if expected to be able to take out a policy after the fire happened...is the insurance company he didn't buy a policy from obligated to replace his home anyway? I think a lot of people are letting their emotions cloud their judgment...had I been there and could have helped I would like to think I would have done so but I would have had no obligation to help and that FD didn't have any more obligation to act than I would have had.

I've participated in that thread but I wasn't equating being permitted with being armed. I just think the approach, whether you are or aren't armed, is the overall best approach in a traffic stop; to each his own (unless of course the law in a particular state requires something specific).

I would think that turning the EOTech "on" is simply a part of training myself to be prepared isn't it? I mean...I also have a SIG front grip (Stoplight STL300J) with has an integrated tactical light and laser; both of which have to be turned on to function as would any tactical light or laser. I agree that not having to worry about turning something on is a nice feature because in an emergency situation time is always precious, but I'm not sure the need to turn the EOTech on is an issue that would preclude it as the right choice for my application. More importantly, I looked at the Aimpoint and just didn't feel as comfortable with it...the EOTech seems a lot easier to get used to using.

Sometimes I wonder just how deep the desire for liberty and independence really goes in today's society....I'm beginning to think it doesn't go all that far or maybe it's just that so many no longer understands it. I think it true to say that most of those who hold the 2nd Amendment dear to their hearts also profess to hold the Constitution and our democratic republic way of government based on personal liberty and independence equally dear. Well...you cannot have personal liberty and independence without equal measures of personal responsibility; at least you can't have the former without the latter for very long. Public services, be they emergency services such as law enforcement, fie, and medical or more mundane services like water, sewer, sidewalks and roadways (to name but a few) all have to be paid for. How they get paid for varies a great deal but at the end of the day NOTHING IS FREE; nor in my always humble opinion should it be free. The person at the heart of this story, Gene Cranick, chose to live in a area that did not have fire protection (as in, he wasn't paying for that protection through property taxes which is how it's usually handled in an incorporated area/city). However, the local town (South Fulton) who was under no obligation to do so, offered city fire services to residents outside of the city limits to those who wanted it in exchange for a small fee (a pretty common way of handling the need in such areas). Mr Cranick didn't pay (at one point he said he decided not to pay then I believe he said that he had forgotten to pay and I think at one point he also said that the fee had been waived at one point and he assumed it would be again). Regardless of which is correct, the bottom line is that he didn't pay the fee. How then is this city fire department obligated to put out this man's burning home once it catches fire? If they are going to provide fire department services whether anyone pays or not then why should anyone pay? If no one pays, how long would there be a fire department? Are some here suggesting the those who do live inside the city limits and do pay their taxes for their fire department are also obligated to provide free fire department services for those who pay nothing? Mr Cranick and his family have certainly suffered and for that I truly am sorry. Further, I wouldn't be "mad" at the fire department had they decided put out the fire. I'm more concerned that many seem to think they (the fire fighters) have an obligation to act regardless of whether their services have been paid for or not...that is not a position I would associate with a belief in freedom, personal liberty or personal responsibility. In my opinion, the fire department was not obligated to act and Mr. Cranick, who didn't pay, is not entitled to have fire department protection...while certainly not all, that's part of what personal responsibility is all about and at the end of the day, the fault for all of this rest on the person who's face Mr. Cranick sees in the mirror when he shaves.

I believe it's correct to say that, in Tennessee at least, as soon as they run your license they'll KNOW you have a TN HCP...I'm not sure that's true in other states. Letting the officer know up front is just a good idea (at least I think it is) and as has already been mentioned, doing so is mandatory in some states.

Westboro Baptist members are among the most detestable people on the planet but they have the right to say what they think. The ability to express political and religious speech (and both are intertwined in the case of Westboro Baptist) are two of the primary motivators for having a First Amendment and we should do nothing to water it down. If the government can stifle the speech of Westboro then they can stifle the speech of my church or your church or your political party or of any of us.

Wow...quite a lot of discussion about this issue (it was all over the morning radio talk shows this morning as well). It's certainly an unfortunate situation for a guy to lose his home but no one has fire department protection for free no matter where they live...if you aren't in an incorporated area (and therefore aren't paying for services like police and fire) why should you expect to have those services??? Apparently, since this person lived outside the incorporated are; if he wanted to have fire protection then he was supposed to pay the annual fee; he didn't so when he needed the fire protection it wasn't there....that's sad but that's also what the concept of personal responsibility is about isn't it?

Am I correct in thinking that the "gunbuster" sign does NOT meet the requirements of the code and, as such, is legally the same as if it wasn't there at all? Frankly, I don't want to give my money to any business that doesn't want me to be able to defend myself so if they make it clear that they don't want me and my weapon in their place of business I don't want to be there whether their sign is "legal" or not but I am wondering about the specific law on the issue.

That's a shame to learn of...I like PeiWei when I'm in the mood for that kind of food...oh well; guess I'll spend my $$ elsewhere.

I don't think "age" is the real issue here...my 89 year old grandmother, now passed, was one of the sharpest, most intelligent people I ever knew...she used the internet. I do think there is at least the possibility for some equal blame here...the seller should have done some research on her own and the folks at the gun shop should have been more honest (assuming of course the $100 was truly an inappropriate offer).

Which is why smart people like you and I always check the applicable state laws for all the states we are traveling through (and print out copies to keep with us) before we make our trip!

The way you handled it is exactly the way I would have handled (and also the way that Tom Gresham and Massad Ayoob recommends handling such encounters). I think it's a simple and easy way of preventing any misunderstanding - you're letting the officer know that you have a permit to carry and if he wants to know if you are actually armed he'll ask you.

Obviously; someone has way too much time on their hands.

Okay folks; eleven (11) people have voted and we have a tie between Saturday the 23rd, Sunday the 24th and Sunday the 30th. Since there is already a "Middle Tennessee" event scheduled at Owl Hollow on the 30th (see: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/events-gatherings/47080-middle-tn-owl-hollow-meet-10-30-a.html)) so I think those who want to get together in "Northern Middle Tennessee" should stick to the 23rd or 24th. I can't be involved on Saturday (10/23) due to a prior commitment, so if I could be allowed to be a bit selfish; I would like to try and do this on Sunday the 24th. If a lot of people who could come on the 23rd can't on the 24th we can change the date; it won't hurt my feelings. Montgomery County Shooting Complex opens at 1PM on Sunday and that's when I think we should all try to be there to get in as much range time as possible. Of course, our other option is to join in with the October 30th event at Owl Hollow and if most of you guys want to do that that's great as well. Please let me know your thoughts/concerns - if it looks like this is a "go" than I'll create a separate thread to announce the event!

I'd say that almost any model in the $20-$40 range will do just about the same (and reasonably decent) job...you can pay a LOT for some and I'm not suggesting they aren't worth it but unless you really want to spend more I think the price range above is sufficient for a good pair. Just as an aside; these things come in very handy as a home defense tool and I keep a pair in my nightstand. You see, they will magnify little ambient sounds if you turn up the gain and provide you "hearing" that you would never get unassisted. This can be a big help in identifying the location of a bad guy in the dark who may be lurking around the next corner. Further, if you do have to fire your weapon, the sound shock alone, which you are protected from, can be a defensive tool if you have hearing protection and your potential attacker doesn't.

I probably should have come back to this thread to let everyone know what I ended up doing...I ended up purchasing a EOTech 512...haven't even mounted (let alone zeroed) it yet but will do so soon. I'm thinking that eventually, if I want magnification I can add the magnifier and sort of have the best of both worlds. As far as shotguns go, I have a 12ga Benelli Super Nova Tactical but I disagree with it's use as opposed to a .223 (SCAR, AR15, etc) because of over penetration issues. I've seen tests using both water jugs and then several walls of dry-wall with the "outside wall" covered with siding where many different calibers of weapons were tested including 38, 9MM, 40S&W, 45ACP (all using hollow point/personal defense ammo) then 12 ga using buckshot and then an AR using 556/223 with personal defense ammo...the only one that didn't over penetrate was the AR (it went through one wall but the bullet disintegrated within the second wall rendering it pretty much harmless. I've also been told by more than one firearms instructor that many law enforcement agencies are switching out their shotguns for ARs for because of the lower risk of over penetration. I suppose that for those who live well out in the country and/or have exterior walls that you can depend on to stop a round it's not something you have to worry about that much but for me, I live in a suburb and only parts of the front wall of the house has brick on it so I do worry about what happens to a round if I miss my target (or even hit it for that matter)...I'm not saying I won't use one of my 45s or my 12ga but if I can get to it I do think my SCAR is the better choice!

I claim no special insight into Haslam's motivations but in general I believe it's true to say that money is hardly the only motivator for people and I'd suggest that is especially true when it comes to politics. "Power" and perhaps moreover, the acquisition of power is a very powerful motivator for many.

I think, perhaps, some might be letting their feelings about abortion (and those who provide them) color their opinion of this incident. About the only thing we can really say right now is that based on what we actually know; there is absolutely no way to determine whether this doctor was justified to draw his weapon or not.

I'm not sure it's all the goofy! I got to shoot my first AK about a month ago was happy to have had the chance. Assuming I can come I'll be bringing at least a couple of 1911s, an HK45 and probably my Glock 20 10MM (which I haven't even shot yet as I just picked it up used this week); I'll likely also bring a SCAR.

I think we'll leave the voting open for maybe three more days or so and then pick a date. At the moment, it's an even race between Saturday the 23rd and Sunday the 24th...my preference would be the 24th (mostly because I already have a commitment on the 23rd! but whatever the group goes with is fine with me.