RobertNashville

Dear DRM, maybe you need to look in the mirror...just saying. No one is coddling anything...no one is taking away anyone's rights and no one is demonizing you. Armchair quarterbacking is so rewarding isn't it! How wonderful that you can sit in front of you PC on a rainy Monday morning and wax eloquently about how people had no "actual basis for their fear"...yeah...real easy to do that NOW after you have all the facts in front you. No one said nor am I saying that the guy did anything "wrong"...he did nothing illegal...the problem is that you can be 100% in the "right" and still be 100% stupid. I occasionally open carry but I don't open carry everywhere and I certainly don't openly carry while I'm out walking my neighborhood and I especially don't open carry when I'm near the elementary school that is only a few hundred feet from my house - I don't carry openly then because it would be STUPID to do so...this guy didn't do anything wrong; he was just stupid...the only thing more stupid is blaming the school and the police for doing their jobs. I don't care what percentage you like, the entire situation could have been easily avoided had the guy carried concealed. I'm sorry if that simple truth escapes you. By the way; have you had your march on the state capitol yet? You know...the one you wanted to do back in January for your "TN Open Carry Day" protest? How did that work out for the cause of open carry???

Come to the next Nashville chapter meeting of the Tennessee Firearms Association (September 20th) Tennessee Firearms Association | Welcome

Maybe I"m wrong but somehow I doubt that you can't see the logic of bkelm18's statement...so what is it then; with the rain outside you've nothing else to do but argue with people??? 95% of the fault here is they guy openly carrying and likely in a area where common sense would have told him not to do so. 5% of the fault is a few people reacting; and in hindsight overrating, to seeing a "man with a gun"; all of which could have been avoided had the man concealed.

I don't know of any but then again, I wasn't aware of fertilizer being used as a bomb to bring down a government building until it happened. I'll admit, thugs and those planning murder don't usually openly carry their weapons but can anyone afford to take that chance today? If the police and school had done nothing and this guy was gunning for his wife or someone he was pissed off at and actually got to the school and shot someone, the outcry from everyone (including you I would bet) would be ear piercing about how stupid and incompetent the school and police were. It used to be no big deal; not even worth mentioning if someone went to school with a gun in their trunk...I did so when I was going straight from school to go hunting rabbits/pheasant...the worst things most kids did was try to sneak a smoke. My dad had several guns in the house and they weren't trigger locked....that was the case with most kids when I was growing up yet no kid went to school and shot up the place. For me, the point of this story - what this story really illustrates is where our society is today. It's not just the anti-gun nuts who are immediately afraid and go off the deep end when they see someone minding their own business with a gun in a holster plainly visible; it's also that we have experienced of schools being targets and people getting killed so yes, the police and schools do have to react differently today than they would have or needed to 30 years ago. Of course...as I recall; you are all for open carry...even wanted to organize some type of formal protest in support of open carry so maybe that has something to do with you blaming the school/police. This whole episode would never have happened if the man in question has been carrying concealed but he was openly carrying and it caused a problem...if there was an overreaction on the part of the school/police then is was primarily caused by poor judgment on the part of this guy openly carrying.

+1 The Titans that moved to Nashville were a hell of a lot classier than what we have now...then again, the NFL (like NBA and MLB) have been heading downhill for years anyway...we don't have professional "athletes" anymore as much as we have highly overpaid thugs who, if they weren't catching a ball would be crushing rocks in some penitentiary somewhere.

What time in the morning?

Good point and I drive through one, myself. However, when I wrote that, I was thinking, without saying so in my statement, that someone wanting to shoot up a school is probably going to do it inside. Even if there are people outside who have their legally carried firearms in the car, a lot of kids and/or teachers could die before someone sitting outside in a car even realized there was a problem.

At 3somethign AM in the morning; I'm not going to wait until someone makes it into my living room before I take action to stop the threat...just saying.

I pretty much agree. What bothers me most about this story is that if this guy had really been a threat to the school/anyone in it; there wouldn't have been anyone around who was armed to try and stop him until the police arrived thanks to our absolute "no guns at school" policy.

I grew up in south-central Ohio; about halfway and directly between Columbus and Cincinnati. I too remember when seeing a gun rack in the back window of a pickup truck was, if not common, not unusual and nothing that would raise an eyebrow...certainly nothing that would give probable cause for a traffic stop. A while back I started a thread about about "displaying" firearms (in my home) rather than just having them locked up all the time...displaying one or two of the family's best or favorite rifles/shotguns also used to be pretty commonplace; just like gun racks in pickups. I've got a couple of really beautiful firearms and it's painful to have them locked up in the darkness of a safe all the time...almost like having a priceless painting sitting inside of a vault! I suppose it being at best unwise, likely pretty stupid and even against the law to display rifles in a gun rack is just more irrefutable evidence that this isn't the society of "Leave it to Beaver", "Father Knows Best", "Ozzie and Harriet" or "The Brady Bunch" any more. Of course, society was never really the way it was portrayed in those shows but it was a lot more like that then than it is now. It's a shame, really. I've lived long enough to go from a time when we never really thought it necessary to lock our doors to a time when not only do I have two locks (deadbolt and knob) on each door but reinforcing around the frame, hinges and lock all to slow down someone trying to kick in the door and the only time my alarm system is off is when I'm entering or exiting a door!

Anytime you can gain some knowledge and learn what other people are doing/thinking it's a good thing...I'd make the trip over but I'll be in Atlanta that weekend.

I'm willing to do either...I'll be going to the Murfreesboro meet on Saturday the 10th; hope to meet Bigwakes there.

And the TN code says that if you carry a firearm into a properly posted property you've committed a crime - it is automatic and it doesn't need interpretation...it's a SIGN that says you aren't welcome if you are carrying a firearm. I can't help that criminal charges aren't attached to "other signs"...however, even if there were; I doubt it would affect your position regarding the charges attached to a no firearms sign. Maybe there needs to be a criminal penalty (how serious a penalty is another matter) attached because if there wasn't, people would just ignore the signs and the rights of the property owner and walk right past them walk - right past them even though they know, because of the signage, that they with their firearm aren't welcome and that they don't have consent to enter the property with their firearm. I don't believe that carrying a firearm into a business that is posted against it should be a serious crime...I also know that there are many firearm enthusiasts who think there shouldn't be any penalty at all. However; when I hear people take that position it implies to me that what they really want is the ability to break the law with no consequences and with no regard to the property rights of others - I find that a little disquieting. Firearm enthusiasts; especially those who carry a firearm for their own protection, make a lot of noise about their rights and how they are law-abiding citizens but yet they seem to want to violate the law and ignore the rights of others if obeying the law and respecting the rights of others is inconvenient.

I think you are really grasping at straws here...if a business says you with your firearm aren't welcome then you KNOW you aren't welcome and that you don not have consent to enter with your firearm...you don't have to be an attorney to figure that out. I know you don't think that it should be against the law to walk past a "No Firearms" sign...I've no doubt that a lot of people agree with you...I just don't see it your way. I can't help your hospital situation...if something actually happens...if you ARE hurt and the hospital knew there was significant risk to its patrons and did nothing then you may have a good civil liability case. However, that doesn't mean they are obligated to allow you to carry a firearm into their hospital.

Or on a website/forum or any other medium of communication that the speaker isn't paying for.

I don’t claim any particular expertise in Tennessee code and if anyone knows I'm wrong in my understanding, please feel free to correct but but I think you are incorrect. The specified criminal charge against an HCP holder who enters a properly posted location is a class B misdemeanor; the same person without a HCP (first offense) is a class C misdemeanor. With regards to trespass in Tennessee when trespass occurs without force to enter the premises, it’s not a criminal offense at all; it’s strictly a civil matter…if the incident is raised to criminal trespass it’s still just a class C misdemeanor. Now, maybe this is all academic…maybe no HCP holder has ever or will ever be charged under that code (at least not if he/she doesn’t make an ass of him/herself) but I do think we have a disparity here…I see no convincing rational for starting at the class B level for an HCP holder but class c for a non HCP holder and/or someone committing criminal trespass.

Brains................BRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In other words; there really isn't any honor among thieves. Oh well, probably never was.

It seems that you are operating under the belief that we have an absolute right to go armed in Tennessee. However, under the Tennessee Constitution; we do not...our ability to legally carry a weapon on our person is an exception to the law as it currently exists. As such, concentrating on the "with a view to prevent crime" with regards to the constitutionality of signage, and where we should be allow to carry is, I think, a read hearing. I do think that we (anyone who hasn't lost their rights through due process) SHOULD, per the U.S. Constitution, be able to carry any type of arm at any place and any time but we can't do so under the Tennessee Constitution and we can't even do so under the U.S. Constitution at the present time as the courts and the federal govt is applying the laws (otherwise, we could all be walking around with fully automatic weapons).

How can one infer consent to enter a business if the business has said if you are doing/carrying "X" you are not welcome here? If the sign says you can't there is nothing to infer. I see nothing unconstitutional about the signage nor do I see any reason to eliminate all penalties for someone who walks past a "No Firearms" sign. What does need to change is the seriousness of the charge...there is nothing fair or equal when the criminal charge against an HCP holder who walks past a sign is more harsh/different than a non-HCP holder who does the exact same thing. As long as the HCP holder isn't brandishing his weapon, threatening people, etc. then simple trespassing is as serious as the change needs to be. I'm sorry that you don't like your local hospitals' policies or their security provisions...I sympathize...but your "right" to carry a firearm does not and should not trump the hospital's right to set the rules that they want to set. In some states, you can use deadly force to protect property but that's not the issue - "property rights" is not about the "property" nor does the property have rights...it's the entity (person/business, etc.) that has the rights to enjoy their property and set the rules for their property as they see fit.

The "definition" depends on just who you are asking as well as the place, time of day and phase of the moon.

Great! Now; if we can just keep you out of WallyWorld....

I didn't read the entire link but it might be that this takes place in what is considered a city park and Knoxville may or may not have opted out of carry in its parks. In any case, I wouldn't go to something like that where I couldn't carry.

Where did I say or imply that you "couldn't sue"??? Please feel free to sue as much as you want. I just don't agree with your assessment that the signage is unconstitutional nor do I think that suing based on alleged unconstitutionality is the way to go about making changes but feel free to pursue that course if that's what you want. I don't agree. When did it become a requirement that something must be "in the code" to be allowed? Where in the code does it say that with regards to a "business open to the public, used for commercial activity", consent is "given" until taken away? Is that just your belief or is there something in the TN code that says that? I think that the "difference" you cite is a difference in your viewpoint but not necessarily a difference in law. That said, I agree with you to a point...I think the state, as a matter of good public policy, can and should reach reasonable accommodations between "property rights" and "2ND Amendment rights" but one "right", in my opinion, should never be allowed to run roughshod over the other. So what is your answer? Is the state supposed to force hospitals to allow firearms inside their buildings? Most of the time, when I have a choice in the matter, I will go somewhere else as I don't like having to disarm in some places. However, sometimes it's necessary I do so and that's just the way it goes sometimes...we can't all get what we want; at lest not all the time.

There are places, I have to go sometimes where I cannot carry as a matter of law and I don't break firearms laws; at least I never have knowingly done so...most of them are not places I consider especially "scarey" or dangerous. Everyplace else, I carry...period. I've often heard the phrase "I wouldn't go there without a gun"...I always wonder; if you wouldn't go there without a gun why would you go there with a gun??? I carry a gun because I may need it to save my life or the life of someone else someday but I also am smart enough to stay the hell away from areas I know are "scarey". Maybe I'm just odd that way???