RobertNashville

Already am.However, I'd still like you to point out any posts I've made where I've stated a conclusion about Zimmerman's or Martin's culpability in this incident...that is, of course, unless you are agreeing that I haven't stated any conclusions about either man. If I've made any such posts or my language wasn't clear then I need to correct them because if anyone thinks I've made up my mind about either man then either they don't understand or I've done a poor job of communicating (or both).

Unfortunately, this isn't a Sunday afternoon nor is it all that beautiful at the moment (rain is expected last I hear) and since I'm working, rather then living off your tax dollars, I don't have to luxury of just going out to a range.

Where, exactly is the post or posts where I've reached or stated ANY conclusion about Martin OR Zimmerman...come on...quote the posts with links to them.Claiming I've reached any conclusion about either man in this case is either fantasy on your part or indicates that you believe, falsely, that my not condemning Zimmerman (as you appear to be so willing to do) is equivalent to condemning Martin. Oh by the way...if the mud sticks that's more your problem than it is mine I think! You are entitled to your opinion but an opinion based on nothing or based on one piece of information while ignoring other information has no value and is rightly ignored.

I've come to only two conclusions; one is that that there aren't enough facts for anyone to reach an informed conclusion about who was in the right and who was in the wrong.The other conclusion I've come to is that there are too many people willing to condemn a man based on virtually nothing at all; even to the point of ignoring information that doesn't support their already formed and often baseless opinion.

Really? You know this for a fact do you?And by the way, if he is never charged or is charged and found not guilty; what is wrong with making money selling his story? I think selling a product and making money from doing so is called capitalism. Let's see...you shoot a 17 year old; justified or not. You face possible charges and jail time. You are under a microscope by the national vultures...I mean press. You have you life not just threatened with credible threats but have a price put on your head. Whether you were in any way justified or not for shooting; your life is effectively down that toilet and you aren't even 30 years old yet. Yeah..only a drama queen would have any sort of stress disorder from this incident. I'm so glad you pointed that out.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for substantiation or evidence from those who have already decided, even decided from day one, that Zimmerman is the guilty party.I realize that armchair quarterbacking almost every significant event is almost a national pastime today. However, it's discouraging that so many are willing to draw seemingly unchangeable conclusions about this event when they weren't there and know nothing about the circumstances aside from what a largely agenda driven and often stupid and even irresponsible press is is willing to make available to them.

I don't see how you could know about any inaccuracies given that the only "facts" you want to consider is one 911 tape.

It's odd how so many people who weren't there can know so much more that the police who investigated the shooting. "According to the initial police report, Zimmerman, 28, told police he was screaming for help and that no one would help him. The report also said Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. Officials said in the report that Zimmerman's back appeared wet and that he was covered in grass." - http://www.msnbc.msn...ews-orlando_fl/

I did not say that there was screaming for help on "Zimmerman's call to the police"; I said that the 911 tapes contain screaming for help; I did not nor did I intend to specify any particular tape; I was referring to all the tapes in general which is why I used the word tapes. No I'm not. I really don't need to; I wrote them. That's not the only tape that matters to me.I'm referencing ALL THE TAPES because I'm interested in ALL that was said and can be heard. Just because only one tape of one call is the only one you want to speak of does not obligate me to ignore the rest of them.

The only "evidence" I'm seen you interested in 29 pages is anything that blames Zimmerman...that's not an "investigation', that's an agenda. And just when did I say you did??? Please quote the post where I said you had "condoned getting a rope and letting him swing".

Noooooope....not putting any words in your mouth.Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I didn't reference any specific 911 tape; who made the call, or make any claim about what tape or tapes you have referenced. I also did not say; at least I did not intend to say, that you were making claims about who was or wasn't screaming. However, some people have made those claims and I mentioned that to illustrate the folly of reaching a conclusion based on a "911 tape" (or tapes) - such a tape(s) is at best, one piece of many pieces of the puzzle and is/are subject to interpretation including incorrect interpretation about what happened. Given how quickly you reach an opinion and based on the limited information you seem to need to reach that opinion, it's probably a good that you aren't investigating the shooting.

Well, I didn't know anyone was disputing Martin's dead body....guess I missed that. Ah yes...the venerated 911 tapes - you've been beating that drum since post no. 9 - the ones that at one point many said that you could clearly hear Martin screaming for help only to find out later that it was Zimmerman screaming for help...yeah...great "facts" there. if that's the "fact" you are basing your assertions on then I hope to god you never get on a jury.

Now, this may be a really wild suggestion but instead of relying on poor quality video that doesn't tell us much of anything about his injuries; how about we wait to hear testimony (if this case actually gets to court) from the medics and/or physicians that treated his injuries before we decide how "serious" his injuries actually were.

I don't know what current procedure is but when I ran as an EMT with Kitsap County (Washington) FD we cleaned blood from the injured areas as part of the emergency treatment; not to make the injured "look pretty" but to be able to see the injury. We need to hear from those who treated him ad the scene and after to know just how injured he was.That begs the question, however, how much of beating is one required to take before it reaches the point of the beaten being in legitimate fear for his life? Must he want until he is almost dead before he can act?

You keep talking about a person getting their ass kicked - how can you be so certain that's all that happened in this case? I don't think you were there....I don't think you have interviewed the eye-witnesses or have been involved in the investigation. Maybe I'm wrong but isn't there a difference, both in law as well as in practice, between an "ass whooping" and getting beaten to the point of death or serious, perhaps life-threatening injury? I'm not going to shoot someone just because I'm getting my ass kicked...I will probably shoot someone if I'm getting beat up to the point that I don't think the assailant will stop until I'm dead or so seriously injured that I might as well be dead. My fear is not getting my azz kicked or of "jail"; my fear is that I may someday have to defend my life or the life of another innocent person by taking the life of another...that's a day I hope never comes...it's also a day I train for and prepare my mind for so that if it does come, I'll do what needs to be done (or at least attempt to do so). What I desperately believe is that should I ever be involved in a self-defense shooting. whether I'm morally and/or legally in the "right" or not, my life will be irreversibly altered in a way that I won't want it to be regardless of whether I stand trial and/or go to jail. Even if Martin was 100% in the wrong and Zimmerman 100% in the right; there are no "winners" here. Look at how many people have had their lives ruined because of this...a family has lost a teenage son....the entire Zimmerman family is likely (and should be) in fear for their lives. Zimmerman can probably never return to his home and who would want to buy it given that it's likely a target of racially based retribution? What about the completely innocent elderly couple who are can't go back to THEIR home because Spike Idiot Lee incorrectly tweeted that couple's address as Zimmerman's address? No...I see no winners here regardless of what the law eventually decides.

And, if by some chance you ever find yourself getting beaten to death in an encounter that that started because of something you did, I would assume then that you are willing to let yourself be killed, correct? I agree and have already said so. However, at least in most states, there is also the recognition of disparity of force....just because someone isn't armed with a "weapon" doesn't mean he can't put you in a position where you have a legitimate fear for your life and support your right to use deadly force to defend yourself. I agree here too and have said so in this and other threads. I agree with Massad Ayoob and many trainers like him who teach that the armed citizen has an obligation to avoid confrontation if at all possible; even if that means you have to swallow your pride and walk away. However, I don't agree that someone has to let another beat him to death just because the one getting beaten to death MAY have done things that precipitated the physical encounter. It must be nice to be do certain of what happened when you know almost no facts...that's a talent I hope I never develop.

Agree with me about what? I've said from the beginning and at least once already today that I don't know who was and who wasn't in the wrong. "Speculation" is one thing and it's understandable but that's not what I'm talking about...I'm talking about people who weren't there, not speculating, but rather being damn certain about who WAS in the wrong with their certainty is based on virtually nothing I find that kind of certainty to be both dangerous and disturbing.

I'm sure he was just an innocent kid out for a bag of skittles.

EXACTLY. The boxer ought to be smart enough and man enough to STOP and not just keep wailing on the man who punched him in the nose. I also suspect that if the boxer (or Martin) had kept going and actually killed the other, it would be the boxer/Martin facing jail time for at least manslaughter.

That's right...I don't think you should be held legally or morally liable if you are truly and have good reason to be in fear for your life and you take action to defend yourself even if you pick a fight with someone.

\Maybe it means that people shouldn't jump to conclusions and especially so when most of the information is innuendo coming from people with an agenda supported by a mostly stupid press.

Actually, as the police and DA have basically been accuse of racism and a flubbed investigation, information has been trickling out including information that at least some of the eye-witnesses indicated that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind as Zimmerman was either heading to his vehicle or getting into it which is one of the reasons the DA didn't think he could get a conviction. In any case, I don't and never will believe that someone gives up the basic right of self-defense just because "he started it"...I agree and practice that carrying a firearm dictates that we should go out of our way to avoid a conflict but still, defending your life is defending your life...even if Zimmerman was 100% responsible for the start of the physical altercation; he shouldn't have to lay there and die just because Martin isn't willing to stop beating him to death.

Yeah? So what? You want to make something of it???

So what if he did? If he did does that mean Zimmermen must then allow himself to be beaten to death? Some seem to think so; I think that line of thinking is Bovine Scatoloty. I think it does. Really...that is the one, the only alternative? You think that there is absolutely not other possible explanation? I think perhaps you are mistaking assumptions and assertions for facts. Sometimes TGO reminds me of a playground; certainly the internet in general does!Anyway, belief and facts often have little to do with each other; most especially when most of the facts aren't even known yet.

Maybe I'm wrong but as facts have bubbled to the surface over the last several days I've noticed a few here who were so dead certain that the shooter was in the wrong are starting to change their tune just a bit; at least their posts now seem less sure of their earlier assertions - I still don't know who was in the wrong here (and said so from the beginning) but I'm starting to suspect that some here are going to find out that their early certainty was misguided. I only hope at this point that with all the black racists who decided to inject themselves into this (Jackson, Sharpton, Spike Lee, and our own socialist in chief, to name a few) that ALL the facts will actually be allowed to come out and the truth sought wherever it leads.