creeky

Uh... I thought he did.

Welcome Sarah. Very little to add to what has been mentioned here. All is top notch advice. Much of which is from shooters with many years of experience handling firearms.

Same here... Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I agree with you... Shot placement has more to do with stopping some one than anything else. I just feel that some rounds leave you with a little more room for error. So statistically it seems that when you only look at handgun calibers... the .45 acp 230 gr. and the .357 mag in 125 gr. have shown the best measurable results from recorded data. Granted this may be because there is more data on these rounds, being that they were issued pretty wide spread. But there is also a lot of data throught the 80's and into the 90's when 9mm was becoming the most common police round. The info that I am looking at can be found here. I also agree that the "will" to keep fighting is a factor (same came be said if drugs are involed), but I can't help but think internal damage is a big factor as well. But I conceed I could very well be wrong. **Edit...** Went by Wally World in Cool Springs on lunch. The lady that runs the sporting section (very nice BTW) checked on the price of .357 sig for me. (I had heard prices were going up.. again!) No change in price. $19.71 a box... In fact we chatted and she said she just changed prices a while ago and strangely it was the only one that did NOT go up! Also mentioned that she used to hardly ever sell a box untill about two years ago, and now she sells them all the time. (Wooo Hooo!!)

How much do they run?

If someone isn't keeping the targets with your serial number on it, and isn't willing to testify in court that you did shoot the target and did well... then how valuable is it anyway? I mean... just becuase I have a target with holes init doesn't really prove much. (IMHO) The crimminal trial (if any) it wouldn't matter. What is judged is your actions, not shot placement. Even in a civil trial I'm not sure how much good it would do you. At best, if you had an errent round hit someone else, you might be able to use something like that... but in the end whatever the bullet strikes your responsible for. I don't think it would do you any good. A good lawyer could twist your "qualifing" with several different weapons trying be a reasponcible gun owner into a "Gun-Nut", "Who shoots human silos for FUN, training himself every weekend he can for the chance, nay... hoping for the chance to live out some rambo, vigilante style fantasy. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury... I ask you... how many guns do you own? How many weekends do you spend shooting and practicing by shooting human targets to the point it means nothing more than putting holes into paper?" Again let me point out that I don't know anything that I am talking about, just running some possibilities. The real experts are the police and handgun trainers on the board.

just put it on and stand in front of the mirror and ask her if your gun makes you look fat. When I got my permit (many moons ago) I felt like Goldilocks and the three bears. This pistol was too heavy, this one was too small, this holster printed too much, LOL!! Really changed the way I looked at guns when I was looking fo ra new carry weapon. Congrats on the permits guys.

I always thought that .45 acp and .357 magnum pretty much tied when it came to "one shot stops". I was thinking they both were around 96% range. (125 gr. and 230 gr.)

I don't really think I (personally) would like it. If you want an external safety then don't buy a glock. If I owned a glock (which I may may one day) I would no sooner think of putting it on one than I would think of putting one on a DAO revolver. It defeats the whole design and purpose of the pistol. I think it is marketed to people who want a glock but the no external safety is keeping them from getting one. It seems to me that hitting a frame mounted safety (like on my HK Compact, or any 1911) would be far easier to "click off" than using my finger inside the trigger guard trying to hit the saftey button on that trigger, then reposition my finger for the pull. (IMHO) The trigger finger has one job to do (Unless you also count the clearing of obstructions in the nasal cavity), and it shouldn't enter the trigger guard until sights are on target. Safeties come off (if on) as the weapon is being presented (or right before). With a glock it would stand to reason that messing around inside the trigger guard could lead to accidental discharges in moments of stress. That being said you can train yourself to manipulate anything... it just seems that this would take longer to learn. (Could be worng though.) As far as the metal against plastic is concerned, I'm surprised that the whole assembly isn't made in metal. I wonder why? (If you'll excuse me, I'm off to clear a nasal obstruction. )

It also seems that I read something about Texas Dept. of Safety going to it because of that as well as something about being very effective against car doors as well.

Molonlabetn's thread on his new M&P in .357 sig got me to wondering... Just how many members of TGO are actually shooting this caliber and also how many did but stopped? So I decided to add a Poll thingy... so we could gauge this at a glance. Also feel free to add what guns you have that you have chambered in it or what guns you had chambered in it and why you don't shoot .357 sig anymore. (I suspect it would be the price of ammo.) =============================================== Me? H&K USPc

Hmmm... good point about the group hugs. Maybe we should look into some sort of training... I wonder if there are any classes on "Tactical Group Hugging", or maybe "Situational Awareness Hugging". I'm really not for "Concealed Group Hugging"... it just kinda creeps me out... but "Open Group Hugging" has it's fair share of problems as well.

Hey "molonlabetn"... i've been re-reading these posts and was wondering, what has gotten you interested in moving from the 239, to the M&P? Is it more of a weight and carry issue? Or is it still looking for something that works best for you. I know that after shooting a Glocks a few weekends ago, it has made me think more highly of them as well. As well as reevaulate my daily carry needs. (Glad to see your still sticking with the .357 sig though! We need all theshooters we can get to bring down ammo prices! )

In seriousness... There are also instances (many in urban areas) of Grandparents raising the kids. And by that I mean 15-17 year olds. Some of them may actually feel (and have reason to be) afraid of the kids they are raising. If a grandparent call sthe cops for a search there is a good chance the kid will still be there after they leave, or after they make bail. If they are in a gang, then they have to worry about retribution form members. But at the same time unwarrenty searches no matter how well intentioned should never be allowed. It is too easy to rationalize your actions when you don't have a set rule in place. For me it would become a "Who watches the Watchers?" type of thing. So what is the answer? Don't know. It would seem that communities need to become more active with each other, and more defensive of their communities, their children, and their common morals. Not sure how this would be done though.

With that kind of talk Mr. Marswolf... I'm afraid that I will have to ask that you not be apart of our group hug. (This is in no way a reflection on you as a person or moderator, but should be viewed more as a "tough love" gesture.) Please don't let this affect your self-esteem in any way. Your smart, pretty, and golly people like you. You may want to look into a certain Buddist website. I think I may have a PM with the link... somewhere. LOL!!

You have a valid point Molonlabetn. After all... "they are our are future" and we should... "Teach them well and let them lead the way" and maybe even sit down with them and... "Show them all the beauty they possess inside.." Group hug anyone?

You could always use the Barret like a simple "dead fall" trap. Wouldn't have to even pull the trigger and it would give you the "deniability" that you need should a "House Subcommittee" (ie. your wife and any kids) start some sort of probe into kitty's accidential death.

I like the 40sw round myself, tending to like the .357 sig over it. But like most things outside pressures seem to effect a caliber being able to go mainstream. We have to acknowledge the "business" side of cartridge developement as well as it's true performance. The .357 sig (to me) is a prime current example. Great data to support it, plenty of guns chambered for it... but with ammo costs (per box) higher than the 40sw, it is being seen as an expensive niche round. Benefits such as using 40. cal mags, easy drop in barrel replacements, the bottle neck design (which I see as a plus btw), along with the ability to have basically a 10 to 15 round .357 magnum semi automatic. H&K dropped the USPc in .357 sig from the importation, yet the P2000, and P2000sk are still offered in it. If sales in them decline... they will stop importing .357 sigs as well. The market and the preceived "Status" of the caliber come into play a lot more than they should. But are serious factors on them none the less. Even television can play a huge roll in gun sales and opinions on them. If you look at it from "Glock's" business model, they are "seen" as the Policeman's Gun. Right or wrong... that is the perception and is true to a point. They have alot invested in seeing the 45Gap succeed... but I think it is more of an status need than anything else. They really don't want to see a caliber they have "their" name on fail. It would be worth it to them (for marketing if nothing else) to offer existing police depts juicey "trade in's" for their older Glocks for 45Gap models. If they can get 5-10 to switch, then I would be willing to bet that you'll see Ad pages in Gun Mags mentioning how it is used by Police depts in X,Y, Z... with a personal few "stories" of how much happier they are. (Let me end by saying I know nothing about what I am talking about. )

I wonder if Glock is offering reduced prices, and/or other incentives to try and get the caliber into more agencies.

Civil unrest is a certainy now... I... I... fear for the children.

I don't keep track of anything really. I wished I had thought about it though. I would have liked to keep a round count that has went through both my HK, and AR. Oh well...

That is an awesome link! Thanks!

Yeah. Heat and wax don't plat together very well. LOL!! Thought this would be a good (and easy) way to try out different colors. I also read that some people were using nail polish. Not sure how well that would work. If I decide to go permanent, I'll use the model paint as suggested. Didn't think about that. That blue looks awesome Sheepdog!

Via crayon... Read about this on a Glock Forum. Just your regular old crayons rubbed over the engraved lettering. Used "Brick Red" for the "HK" and "White" for the rest. Thought It looked pretty neat. I may clean it off and try "HK USP COmpact" in Red, and the rest in Grey next time. Anyone else ever tried it?

Can't seem to get a Colt Detective Special out of my head now.