wileecoyote

The absolute best thing you can do for a new shooter is to have them take the NRA pistol course before they buy any guns or go to the carry permit class. This is 10 hours of hands on classroom instruction and range time, lots of practical exercises, and more than 40 different guns to see, try, practice with safe dummy ammo before you go live fire. It's a ton of fun, and I guarantee everyone on TGO would learn something new, even veteran shooters, other instructors, and military / LEO. I've been teaching these for free or very cheap for years to anyone age 10 and up, and I certify other instructors including lots of seasoned folks, everyone has fun and is amazed how much you learn. Helps them avoid buying the wrong gun or picking up bad habits, makes them safer.

Lebanon usually has a pretty good show at the fairgrounds, exit 239, and it's not bad for traffic. Lots of places to just pull onto the shoulder of the road and park.

Amazing selection, very cool store to browse, I'd go few times a year just to look. But in my first 3 visits (to buy 22 lr at the grand opening) I tried really hard to find anything else I could buy to reward them for selling 22 lr at old low prices, and I just couldn't find anything that was even close to a reasonable price except a shotgun vest that was on sale, and that was just an Ok price. All of the used guns I looked at were priced same or even higher than new guns, even their own new guns of the same model! I immediately thought of Franklin Gun Store pricing (gasp!), but at least Gander Mountain had a huge selection and good customer service. I managed retail for many years, and the price matching is almost always impossible to pull off, by design. They usually insist on it being advertised in a printed catalog or flyer which you have to bring in with you, and then they have to be able to confirm it is the exact same model number which is hard because most printed ads don't have that much detail, and many manufacturers ship slightly different models to each retailer (by request so they don't have to price match). And most small to medium sized local gun shops that would normally have lower prices don't do print advertising. In a few rare cases the big store can be persuaded to call a local store for a price check and to verify stock / model number, but that is unlikely and it usually takes forever for the call to complete successfully, with one of the store employees on either side usually giving up after being on hold too long or not getting enough answers. And even if it works, they are only matching the price, not beating it, so why go through all the trouble? Support the smaller business to keep them in the game.

Cool idea, thanks!

[quote name="RedChief_223" post="1164950" timestamp="1404400428"]The special is back up on their sight.[/quote] Thanks for sharing, great deal!

The big name free sites always get spam and over priced stuff, because it's free and easy for the sellers to post it so why not throw a bunch of ads out there? That's why I like TGO, because people are generally more reasonable when they have to pay to advertise, and where anonymity is lost, their reputation is known.

Every time I check TGO it costs me more money... :-) Thanks for sharing. With that low of a price it's cheaper than shooting 22 lr... ;-)

You can buy a decent drill press from harbor freight in Nashville for about half that price, and use their 20% off coupon that is in all the papers, magazines, and mailbox flyers. It works well, I've got one but I'm out in Lebanon and can't have visitors at the shop.

I have been working with and carrying guns for more than 30 years. I have owned, carried, and inspected several hundred holsters. My personal holster collection is north of 100 items, including some that I have made or customized. I have carried in many states and in nearly all climates, with just about every dress style, event type, and gun combination possible. What I have learned from all of this regarding holsters can be summed up in only 3 words: NO FREE LUNCH   Everyone wants the impossible: a holster that makes the gun totally disappear and weigh absolutely nothing, while also making it quickly and easily available when needed, and yet secure enough that it cannot be taken or will not work loose during aggressive body movements, and as comfortable as their own skin. And of course they want it to be low cost, long lasting, and available in every color and size choice they can dream up. Well the facts are that no such holster ever existed, nor will it ever exist. Carrying any gun is at best a minor inconvenience which you learn to live with or workaround over time, and at worst a heavy burden which can physically injure or kill you or others if not done properly. So I don't normally pay much attention to new holster makers, models, or advertisements claiming that they have found the holy grail... it just isn't going to happen. Sure, some new materials or design concepts will emerge every few years, but the facts remain the same... NO FREE LUNCH   Having said all of that, I found myself walking the aisles at the last Murfreesboro gun show and I was waiting to meet someone. Out of sheer boredom I eavesdropped on a guy trying to sell his new holster product, a belly band style holster. I snickered a little to myself, knowing full well the many downfalls of all the usual belly band products, considering that I must own at least 20 of those from various makers and have tried even more over the years. Most people weren't giving this guy the time of day, and he was not selling much or any product as far as I could tell. When he ran out of people to pitch to, he saw me waiting nearby and he started in on his pitch again. I politely conveyed my lack of interest and he stopped. I was walking away to wait somewhere else when he said something that made me stop a minute. He said he was not a gun guy, and in fact he had spent all of his career in the medical field designing and making devices for disabled folks that have to sit for long periods in wheel chairs, and he only recently started to carry a gun when he realized that the medical designs and materials might be able to help on the holster side. So he designed his own holster not from a gun perspective, but from a medical perspective, seeking first to have something that would be comfortable, fit well, and hold up under load for long periods. I also have some experience with medical devices and needs so I was familiar the design concepts he mentioned, and this made me curious enough to go back to his table and take a look.   I ended up buying one of his belly band holsters, mostly out of curiosity because it did look and feel different than all the others I had seen, but even while I was paying I fully expected to take it home, try it for a few days, and toss it in the small room which houses my holster collection. Yes, I have a holster room, not a box or closet. Well I did try it on twice and inserted a few guns but then I got distracted by other projects so I tossed it on the kitchen table and ignored it for a week or so. Then one day I had to run out quick for some errands and I didn't have time to change or "gear up" as I normally might. It was 90+ degrees and humid (typical TN summer), and I was wearing gym shorts and a tshirt, no belt. So I saw the belly band and figured why not give it a try... I slipped it on and dropped in my Kahr CM9 then headed out the door. Without describing my day in detail, suffice to say that I was quite amazed at how well this holster worked and how comfortable it was despite the heat and my physical activities which included bending, stooping, sitting, standing, and helping to load a few big boxes into my truck bed. And a lot of sweating. I never "forgot" that I was carrying it, that is total BS if anyone ever tells you that about any gun and holster, but I was continuously impressed with how comfortable, cool, and stable the holster was despite the weight of the gun and lack of any other support from my loose clothing, And the gun remained dry, never once chaffing my skin, and somehow avoiding the beads of sweat that soaked my clothing during the strenuous parts.   So I was still skeptical but I was intrigued enough to wear the holster at least a dozen more times over the next few weeks, under numerous circumstances and with different clothing types. I even tried locating it in different positions and with different guns. My favorite concealment gun for the hot TN summer days is the Ruger LCP with CT laser, and it is a match made in heaven for this holster, being even thinner and lighter than my CM9 yet very reliable. Now I am not advertising his product so I am not going to go into all the features and benefits, I will simply say that this is probably the best PRACTICAL concealment holster that I have found for my needs to-date. While it is very good, and I plan to get a few more of these for my family and friends soon, there is still NO FREE LUNCH. When concealing any gun there is always a slight bulge under your clothing, which is only "invisible" if your clothing is very loose and long, and this holster is no different. Like many older guys I have a bit of a beer gut around the middle, so this aggravates the problem with even small protrusions of the grip or heel of the gun printing through the light tshirts and shorts which are common in this southern heat. Yet it did the best job of any holster I have seen at concealing the gun as much as possible under those conditions, by holding it tight to my body without the need for an undershirt or extended layer to separate my body from the gun. I was able to minimize the printing by wearing the gun low around the waist line, something which was not possible with other holsters that would simply fall down as you walked, but this holster kept it right in place all day long. Another noticeable drawback I have for this holster is that the outside of the material is quite smooth, almost silky, so anything you wear over the holster tends not to grip on the holster. This may be a good thing for some folks that want their clothing to ride loosely and freely on top of the gear, to avoid printing or showing by allowing your shirt to ride up, but in my case I often wear loose gym shorts without a belt so those tend to slip down more easily when I am wearing this holster, thus I have to tighten the drawstring a bit which can aggravate the printing issue if tightened too much. So I may suggest that he consider applying a thin pattern of "gripper dots" on the outside of the holster, possibly made of neoprene or silicone or a similar material, so that it won't make it any thicker or too "grabby" yet it will allow clothing (primarily your pants or shorts) to stay in place without needing a belt or tight drawstring. Women (or guys) wearing this across the chest area or high on the waist may not have this problem.   If you are looking for a belly band style concealment holster, I recommend trying one of his products out. if you don't like it, PM me and I will buy it from you (at a small discount of course). :) He also makes a few other products but he did not have those at the show and I have not tried them, so I cannot comment on those. Here is the link to the holster that I picked up: http://www.telortactical.com/products/comfort-air-bodyband-holster

I think if the customer had left the store for any significant time (maybe >24 hours?) the dealer is required to do another form to document the serial number switch out and verify that the customer did not have a criminal status change after his last visit, but even if so this should not have prevented the business from doing the right thing. It's the cost of doing business.

I would have taken it back in to show the owner or manager the condition of the gun in person. Then if they insisted that the gun was still brand new and had never been fired, and it was in exactly the same condition as all of their brand new guns, I would say "then you won't mind exchanging it for me now to give me another brand new one of the same model". So the only way they could refuse to help you is if they admitted that the gun is now less than brand new, and then accuse you of causing the wear and tear. But no matter what the situation, if the customer is unhappy then a smart owner / manager should offer to do something to please them even if only a small gesture, unless they truly felt or had evidence that the customer was abusing or scamming the business. But many small businesses just don't think or operate that way, either because they can't afford to or because they are not mature enough to realize the right way to handle it.

Any drug or substance that alters or impairs your mental / emotional / physical function is not a good mix with firearms possession or use. If you ignore this and use firearms while under the influence of such substances to any degree, whether legal or not, then you are taking a risk. The degree of the risk is debatable, but you can bet that nearly all LEO, attorneys, judges, juries, and average-joe citizens will have a very different view of it than you do, and it won't be in your favor.

If the gun was ever fired (outside of the factory test case), then it should have been sold as USED, regardless of whether or not it was ever cleaned after shooting.

I have personally inspected and handled literally several hundreds of brand new guns shipped from dozens of manufacturers, distributors, and dealers over the past few years alone. Nearly all of these were never opened new in box and I was the first person to open the boxes. Every single gun that was sold as brand new was in fact brand new (even the cheaper brands or models like Taurus TCP), and it's pretty easy to tell. The box or case usually has a stiff feel free of creases and lacking the looseness that comes with multiple open/closing actions. The guns are almost always wrapped in protective plastic or special treated paper, and all metal surfaces coated lightly with gun grease or oil. There are usually multiple labels or tags attached via easy-peel adhesive or short hang-tag strings. The factory papers are sharply pressed and free of bent corners, creases, or tears. Nothing has fingerprints or smudges, nothing is out of place, all minor accessories are present such as sample oil tubes, desiccant packs, or NRA membership discount cards, and everything just smells new. The first person to handle the gun should be the dealer, assuming he opens it to verify the serial number during logging per federal law, but about half the dealer employees I have seen actually doing the log work just assume they are correct and log them based on the serial numbers marked on the outside of the boxes (not a good idea). Whenever the dealer does open the box to verify, they should be able to do so with minimal intervention such that everything remains new and untouched, as the serial and model numbers are visible through plastic and you can handle the gun with gloves or a gun rag to prevent fingerprints. Unfortunately many dealers do open the guns repeatedly, handle them, put them on display, take them to gun shows, repack them, let customers handle them (usually racking the action numerous times), and in rare cases even test fire them. It is common for the guns to incur at least minor wear during this process, and the pristine new unopened condition is long gone, sometimes with small things being lost, taken, or otherwise going missing. Most dealers (especially smaller local dealers) feel that the gun is still "new" if it was never sold or transferred, but I personally disagree. To me the gun is only brand new in the box if it was never opened, handled, cycled, etc. outside the factory other than the bare minimum necessary to verify serial number during the transfer and sale process. I can spot handled, opened, or re-packed guns a mile away. When I personally buy a new gun I inspect it carefully before completing the background check form or paying, and if it is not absolutely flawlessly 100% brand new then I either won't buy it, or I'll ask for a different one if they have others in stock, or I'll expect at least a small discount. But then I typically purchase most of my new guns from large distributors or internet wholesalers so this is rarely a problem. The smaller local dealers are much more likely to open, handle, inspect, display, rotate, etc. because they maintain smaller inventory levels and sometimes sit on the guns for months before they sell. And I have seen more than a few cases where a dealer accepts a return from a customer and places it back in inventory for sale as new, assuming the customer never shot it or in some cases knowing that it was shot a few times but they clean it up the best they can to avoid taking the financial loss. It is hard to be sure what happened to the OP based on only 2 photos but I would bet the gun was NOT absolutely brand new when he got it, and was probably shot a few times or at least handled a good bit. In any case, let the buyer beware, and you have a lot less leverage if you don't inspect the gun before purchasing or leaving the store. Hope that EW offers you an exchange for a brand new gun, or at least a small discount or store credit. Good luck.

Congrats! Wish I had seen your thread earlier. I have been a featured speaker at many international PM conferences for many years, and one of my most demanded presentations is how to get PMP certified in just 2-3 weeks. I created a unique approach with several materials to make it easier and have been sharing it with coworkers, friends, and companies all over the world totally free ever since. For anyone who has a similar need in the future, just PM me and I'll hook you up free as well, no strings attached, just doing it as a favor to fellow TGO members.

I did some quick editing of willis68's original photo using the MOP image from the ProTech photos to show what the knife might look like with Ivory handle and MOP button. If this is correct then I would prefer the Ivory button, I think the MOP would clash a bit and look less clean, but I am down with whatever the group decides.

In for 3. I'd like more but doubt I could handle more. :-)

Your recent post had asked for opinions on the type of button to be used, either mother-of-pearl or ivory. I have never seen any photos of the MOP button or any MOP knife from ProTech on these TGO posts, and all the photos of the knifes both here and on the Pro-Tech website have been small enough that it is hard to imagine what a MOP button would look like, or how MOP would look next to Ivory handles. I realize you are doing a great service to coordinate this group buy. Please do not take any of my suggestions or comments as being critical.

It would really help to have some actual photos when asking us to pick various style preferences. Closest thing I could find on the ProTech website were the following images, which are a bit too small to really spot the detail of the buttons, but I think enough to indicate that a MOP button and Ivory Micarta handle would be an awkward color match, so I think the Ivory button would look best for keeping with the clean simplistic appearance, IMHO. I do like MOP but think it would clash with the Ivory handles and look less clean. Hoping to see larger, better photos and maybe I would change my mind.

I am already in for the Tuxedo knife, signed up on the official thread. My preferences for style (if we have a choice) are as follows: - black matte or satin finish for the blade, not silver or gloss (I assume some type of stainless or corrosion resistant steel will be used regardless of blade color and finish) - ivory micarta handles with ivory micarta button to match - TGO markings to be made in single color, black (first choice) or red (second choice) I would specifically like to avoid a full color logo on this knife, or any other colors for that matter. I think the elegance of a tuxedo is black and white, so to apply any type of multi-color logo would tarnish that clean business-like look IMHO. This is also why I prefer the black matte blade, to blend in more with the knife body. I realize we may not have choices on these things, and I am not familiar with ProTech options, just responding to WILLIS68's request for button preference.

I don't live in that area so am unlikely to ever stop in at EW. Might have made a trip eventually just to check it out, but after their very poor handling of the 22 LR situation, I decided it's something I would cross off my bucket list in favor of more enjoyable activities. Same reason I quit shopping at a few other places too, which shall remain nameless so as not to start another flaming dog pile. But Gander Mountain in Mount Juliet, on the other hand, is somewhere I have gone 3 times before it even officially opened, and I plan to go back again soon. Many of their prices were high (especially guns) but they had an amazing selection, their employees were super friendly, and they sold many pallets of 22 LR at low prices and handled the distribution of it with grace and fairness for all.

Many thanks! I have some plans to burn AVGAS in the near future... :-)

And does anyone know if there are any aerial aerobatic schools operating within a 3-hour drive of middle TN? We used to have Warbird Skyventures but I think Gina shut the business down after a controversial accident collision in Texas, and that is something I always wanted to do - pilot an AT6 or similar through gut-wrenching aerobatics until I passed out or the instructor had to takeover to prevent ground impact. I have gone on a few rides at various flight schools but they don't offer the high-G aerobatics.

Damn, it looks like it was a great show. I haven't been to this show in years. I used to live near the airport and would see them practicing over my house and could even watch a good part of the show for free, but I always preferred to go and sit right up on the flight line all day long. I really wanted to go again this year, and had planned to buy the tickets on Friday afternoon pending a good weather forecast, but I aggravated my injuries trying to help a friend move on Friday so I spent all day Saturday and most of Sunday recovering. Now I just have to hope that they do another show next year. Did they do any ground demonstrations besides the jet truck? Like the strafing runs, helicopter insertion / evac, bombing runs, etc? I always thought those provided a nice variety instead of just flying plane after plane, especially for the youngsters. I would really love to see some live-fire shows like they do out in the desert. Warthog, Apache, etc.

Now that I see it all together (and opened), the color logo doesn't look so large, I could dig it. Nice work ProTech.