JayC

I agree with everything you said, but they'll have to at least come up with some reason other than he wouldn't allow me to search SCOTUS has gutted the 4th and 5th amendments when it comes to searches... We should still require officers to get a search warrant before searching any car or home. At least then they have to swear under oath the reason why they want to look, and get a judge to rubber stamp the warrant... And you're also right, an officer who does get a search tossed faces little downside... even if he is named in a lawsuit there is little chance he will have to pay. I will say it's my understanding that the ratio between searches ruled illegal and lawsuits which result in a settlement where nothing illegal was found is high enough to be noticed by insurance companies covering police departments. Enough that many policies now require additional policies and/or training on illegal searches. I was trying to be a little light hearted OhShoot, because if I really focus on how far we've broken the 4th and 5th amendments my blood pressure goes up too high

Can I tag along, that seems like a useful skill to learn Although we need to be careful not to run afoul of ATF regulations

Shoot you need to put smilely faces behind comments like that... people may take what you say seriously... Refusing to consent to a search is never reasonable suspicion under current case law. Just like refusing to answer questions can not be seen as RAS or PC for a search either. An officer may choose to search but if he gives that reason as RAS any good lawyer is going to get the search kicked. It won't stop them from searching, it won't stop them from arresting you... it will likely stop them from charging or convicting you... and it will likely result in a lawsuit that names said LEO individually as a defendant.

Woah Dave... they've allowed a lot of searches of CHILDREN under their care... Virtually none of that case law is applicable to non-student adults. And the SCOTUS opinions clearly indicate that. As far as reasonable suspicion, that seems to be the standard everywhere today, not just for schools, if the police have a reasonable suspicion you have, are or about to break the law they can stop and search you.

I'd prefer to carry 45 acp, but my wife can't shoot 45 well enough to carry it daily... So to keep mag compatibility I now carry 9mm daily.

And then advanced around the truck back towards the other man. That is the key part... if he had retreated to his vehicle and gained access to a firearm and stayed there 'in fear for his life' and them made the first reasonable attempt to contact the police of retreat further he wouldn't have been arrested IMHO. You keep missing the key detail in these examples, it's not the act of placing the gun in hand by itself it's other actions combined with that one that make it an assault. My firearm was sitting between my leg and the arm rest in the vehicle, the only way somebody would have seen it is if they ran up on the vehicle at night in the dark. I would have had no problem relating my reasonable fear to any police officer and I'm confident my actions that night were justifiable. I didn't pull my gun on anybody... I just placed in in a more 'comfortable' position. It is the same, in both cases you aren't yet ready to shoot, yet tactically the situation calls for quicker access to your firearm. There are times outside the home where this can be true as well, and legal. I to this day don't have any idea what they did it in the dark... It could have been a strange bathroom break, it could have been something far worse and for some reason they choose not to do it... I have no clue... I didn't threaten deadly force because the situation didn't call for it... I did move my firearm from a hard to draw location to a location where my response would have been quicker if I had been threatened. I'm comfortable that I did the right thing with the information I knew at the time.I'm done with this thread, I've stated my point, it's clear some folks just can't see any other view point other than their own.

Let me try this one last time... 1. To use deadly force or serious bodily injury are generally illegal in the state of TN. 2. There are a limited number of exceptions to that general rule. Most of those exceptions are available to all citizens and a couple extra are only available to law enforcement. 3. You may only threaten to use deadly force or serious bodily injury when you would otherwise be legally allowed to use said force. If not, you're breaking the law(s). 4. There is no special exception for police officers to threaten deadly force when they lack the ability to use deadly force under the law. The point here is that department policy must conform to the law, there clearly are cases where officers pull their weapons but are not yet in a situation that justifies using deadly force. Your argument is that they're just allowed to threaten deadly force whenever they feel like it, and regular citizens can't do that.... The argument from experts in police policy take an entirely different approach, that low ready, unholstering the firearm, disabling the retention system etc are not in and of themselves a threat to use deadly force. I'd have no trouble finding a number of police officers who are expert witnesses to testify to that. Leonard's encounter with the Belle Meade PD is a perfect example of this... Here you have a man with a loaded firearm in his hand, if you watch the video very closely you'll notice a number of things. First, he wasn't charged with assault (and trust me if they could have charged him with something they would have).... He had a firearm in the hand out of a holster, you're entire argument is that is a threat to use deadly force. Second, at least 1 of the officers can be seen disabling the retention system on their holster when approaching Leonard. Leonard's stunt proves that more is needed to charge an activist nutjob with assault that just having a handgun in the hand. Is it stupid to use by the hand carry as your default carry method YES, nobody here is trying to make the argument that unholstering your weapon is a good idea all the time. But clearly there are cases where unholstering your weapon is prudent, yet not a threat to use deadly force in and of itself. As for it's a bad idea to learn from police policy and procedures I disagree, there are a lot of very good habits that I've picked up over the years from friends in the law enforcement community. 1. Back Up Guns 2. Carrying Extra Ammo 3. Retention Holsters - to just name 3. The law enforcement community has a very dangerous job, it can go from peaceful traffic stop to an all out fight for survival in mere seconds. The training and tactics they use to come home every night are useful for HCP holders to study and learn from. Many of those are not things we can directly do ourselves, but they do give us plenty of insight into what does work, and how it can be adapted to our daily lives.

Again, read the question I asked please... I'm aware of the teenager/interstate case... the man pointed the weapon at the teenagers, and made a verbal threat according to the news report. In your second post EVERY case you pointed out, the person in question took another threatening action... Guy gets into an 'argument' retreats to his truck, pulls a weapon, racks the slide, and then comes around the vehicle towards another man in an aggressive manner is assault... We're talking apples and oranges here.... This isn't the behavior Mike was describing. There is a huge difference between pulling and pointing a firearm, and what we're talking about... As for my own personal incident... exit the vehicle and go where? Into the middle of a big empty parking lot? I'm not running very far anymore While you're right the vehicle isn't the best form of cover (but in this case it was far better than any alternative around), it is a good form of concealment... As far as your suggestion of ramming the other vehicle... that would have been the same as pointing at gun at somebody... I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that unless things had gone sideways. And going forward wasn't an option, the curb and vertical concrete vehicle poles would have prevented that (yes, I know stupid stupid stupid, hind sight is always 20-20.. I knew better but allowed my guard to drop in an area that I didn't feel was dangerous) Cognito, you keep making the assumption I was using my firearm... I wasn't... I moved it to a more accessible location in case I needed to use it. I didn't take any aggressive action, nor do something crazy like jump out of the car and confront whoever was blocking my vehicle... I waited to see what happened next and tried to be prepared for the worse in case it happened. The moral of this story is there are times that reducing the amount of time it takes you to bring your weapon up is prudent, and often when you take that action you're not yet in a position to make a self defense shooting. Even if you don't agree in this case... how would you clear your house in the middle of the night after hearing a loud noise? With your handgun in a holster?

I'm sorry Cognito, but you're just on the wrong side of this argument... We're just not seeing the charges and convictions you're talking about happening... There are TONS of case reported here where a HCP holder (Good Guy) pulls a weapon and isn't charged.. We just don't see the police taking your stance on when you'll be charged with 'brandishing' a weapon. We see people who clearly weren't covered under the law shooting people and not being charged. They didn't even charge Leonard with "brandishing" a weapon while walking down Main St in Belle Meade... I'll be much more worried about it when I see the first case of an otherwise lawful citizen being charged with brandishing... yet doesn't point the weapon at anybody. I haven't seen a single case in the last 10 years... but who knows all of a sudden there may be tons of them popping up any day now. As for my 'drawing down' on some 'children'... I never pointed the weapon at anybody, I never attempted to exit my vehicle... This is where you're just flat out wrong. Moving my firearm to a more accessible location was not a threat to anybody, it would just allow me to more quickly respond should that situation become more threatening. From training I know that unholstering a weapon from a car seat isn't easy, or fast, and therefore my training kicked in and I moved the firearm to a better position to possibly defend myself. So to recap, 2 vehicles pull into an otherwise completely empty parking lot (75-100+ empty spaces) after dark... 2 16-20 year olds exit 1 vehicle at a run, each in different directions into the darkness on either side of my vehicle, and seconds later a second vehicle parks 2 feet off my back bumper blocking my vehicle from being able to move. The youths didn't run towards the public restroom, they ran into the dark. I suspect they were going to the rest room in the woods, truth is I have no clue what they were doing in the dark. Yeah, my SA sucked big time... I wasn't as alert as I should have been, the area didn't seem dangerous to me, and I made some critical mistakes... for about 60 seconds, I thought for sure I was about to have a really bad day... I was in fear for sure, any REASONABLE person in that situation should be afraid, I allowed myself to get into a poorly defensible situation in a dark parking lot at night. So you're making the argument that I should have left my gun in a holster until a person came up to my window with a gun drawn? Making it virtually impossible for me to defend myself? This incident ends up not going sideways for whatever reason... I'm glad it didn't... but I'm not going to follow some silly 'rule' made up by folks which isn't even a law, instead of giving myself the best chance to save my life? Sorry I'll pass on that 'logic' and 'training'. BTW, if I park my car 2 feet off your back bumper at night in an otherwise empty parking lot and come running up to your car... I fully expect that you might take those actions as hostile on my part... Normal people don't behave like that... it wouldn't give you the right to shoot me, but it sure would give you the right to think something bad might happen. We're just not seeing Stranger A and Stranger B both HCP holders shootouts... let alone Cops v HCP holder shootouts... Just FYI, without saying a word the passenger in my vehicle, also unholstered his EDC and had it handy... and was calling out what he saw out his side mirror... I wasn't the only person in the vehicle who went from 0 to 100mph. If I was a bad guy, it would have been pretty hard to setup a better situation.

Cognito, the law is clear, and training is well documented, in many departments weapons at the low ready, or at the back side of the leg hidden from view are not considered a threat of death and serious bodily injury in and of themselves. Neither is placing your hand on your firearm, nor disabling the retention function of your holster considered a threat in most departments. Under the law police officers don't have some special power to threaten death when using deadly force isn't authorized. Because they can't, they have legally found ways to be better prepared which are legal, because the act does not threaten death. I'm not suggesting that doing so in every case is a good idea, or even in the majority of cases... but there are times that preparing yourself and your weapon is prudent even when you're not yet been threatened with death by another person. We can all think of some examples where only a fool will continue to keep a weapon holstered, even though they are not yet at a point to fire. You hear a loud noise at night in your house and you go to investigate, until you discover a person has broken in, you aren't ready to fire, but clearly having the weapon in hand pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger would be a better method than carrying in your holster. Here is another personal example... me and a buddy were waiting at a PP boat dock after dark for a friend (teaches me to do favors for friends) late last fall... it was after dark, and the parking area was empty... all of a sudden a crappy 4 door sedan pulls up 2 parking places away the doors open up and two gangster looking youths exit and run into the dark in different directions... following behind was a SVU which pulled around and blocked us into parking spot... So, I have 2 questionable youths on foot, and a second vehicle blocking me in so I can't move away... I clearly was not yet in a justified self defense shooting yet... but I did remove my weapon from it's holster and positioned it so I could bring it up and on target much quicker. You'd suggest doing so was a bad idea? Now, the SVU pulls away 30 seconds later, the 2 youths come back from what appeared to be a restroom break and the sedan drives off... I never threatened anybody... I was concerned that something bad might happen shortly and wanted to do my best to protect myself. (after getting myself in a bad situation - I quickly repositioned the vehicle to prevent us from being blocked in). That incident could have turned out differently... 1. It could have been police officers performing some type of investigation... and here I would have had a loaded firearm in my lap when they approached the vehicle... I would have spent a couple of hours trying to explain to the officers what was going on. 2. It could have been a real threat that was about to kick off, and the second or two I saved by moving my handgun to my hand might have made all the difference in the world. Holsters are the best way to generally carry your handgun, you should not point or otherwise threaten somebody with a handgun unless you're ready to shoot them... Those are good rules to live by, but there are times when using SA to prepared for a possible encounter, having that handgun in the hand before things kick off might mean the difference between going home to your family and being the latest victim on the nightly news. People have to use common sense but common sense says there are times that taking your gun from it's holster to have it more ready is the right thing to do, even if you haven't yet reached the level of a justified shooting.

There is no 'brandishing law' in TN, there is making a threat with a firearm... it requires intent, and behavior in such a way as to constitute fear... depending on the details, it's considered a type of assault under TN law (The exact type of assault depends on a number of factors). Now, nobody here is suggesting running around with a pistol in the hand is a good idea... only that moving your weapon from your holster to your hand to have quicker access to it, is by itself not assault. You must do something else, such as point the weapon, say something, or act in some manner that is otherwise threatening.

+1 - Punisher84 hits the nail on the head...

Can you cite some example cases? That just doesn't seem to hold true to reported self defense shootings we've seen documented here in the past. I can name 3 different cases where Bad Guy has a gun, Good guy has a gun... good guy gets released from the scene not arrested and bad guy is dead or goes to jail. LEA have a lot to do with it... generally if they don't arrest you... it's very rare for a DA to push a case forward. Also, my experience of documented cases doesn't jive with yours... Guy A with has a HCP fires on guy B who is a convicted felon, with a firearm and a rap sheet of armed robberies... I've yet to see guy A get charged in TN... What DA in his right mind is going to take a he said he said case to a jury in TN where 1 person has never been in trouble with the law, and the other guy is a known armed robber? Here is another example that happened less than 2 years ago in Metro Nashville... women (HCP) finds car thief breaking into her car... holds susp[ect at gun point while waiting on the police... police get there arrest suspect, after verifying woman's HCP status sends her into the house... not charges filed... technically she broke the law... but it's much easier to arrest the real bad guy and give the good citizen a pass. The reality is, most police officers don't want to arrest law abiding citizens who stop a bad guy from hurting them... In most cases telling who's the good guy and who's the bad guy is pretty straight forward... It's rare for good guys to get themselves arrested let alone charged and convicted here in TN. I agree in TN trying to pull a citizens arrest is often a very bad idea, and unless your job requires you to do so and you've had extensive training, it's generally better to be a good witness for the cops than to attempt one. BTW, looking at how police do certain things to protect themselves is a good idea... if you're ever involved in a SD shooting, following documented examples of what the 'experts' do in life threatening situations is something that will tend to benefit you IMHO. I'll give you a perfect example, somebody knocks on my door at 2am, I'm going to have a gun in my hand hidden behind my back leg when I go to answer the door. I'm willing to bet the VAST majority of police officers on TGO would do the exact same thing. I'm not threatening anybody, I'm just ready because of the higher likelihood of risk. The one time I've had to do that in the last 2 years, it was a police officer asking about the next door neighbors alarm, once I saw it was the police, I discreetly re-holstered my weapon and had a chat with them.

Police officers are under the same requirements under the law as citizens (let me be clear what I mean when I say this - the law either authroizes deadly force - and therefore the threat of deadly force - or it doesn't there is no middle ground). There are couple of extra circumstances where a police officer is allowed to threaten deadly force were a regular citizen is not. But, if holding a weapon at the low ready or to the side of one's leg hidden from view was considered a threat of deadly force, it would apply to police officers and citizens alike. I contend that merely holding your pistol at a low ready or pulled from the holster and hidden behind your back/leg is not a threat in and of itself... That some other action would have to be taken (spoken threat, or some other behavior) to rise to the level of a threat. Same goes for having your hand on your weapon, that action alone does not make it a threat. I come home and my front door is sitting wide open... it's perfectly reasonable to bring the weapon out of the holster and to a low ready even if I'm not in direct threat, because the situation clearly indicates a higher level of threat... A guy comes rushing out of my door isn't going to get me charged with threatening him in that case, nor is my neighbor across the street when I'm not facing or interacting with them either. I'm not suggesting that we should all go running around with loaded pistols in your hands at the low ready, but there are times where pulling your weapon and having it more ready is a perfectly legal and valid tactic... for that reason some police departments train their officers to do this, and consider it a valid tactic... I'd have no problem finding examples of officers clearing leather but not pointing the weapon at a suspect that would clearly not have been justified shooting at that exact second.

+10000 There is a reason police officers are taught to unholster their weapon but keep it out of sight in a potentially dangerous situation.

We don't have either of those laws in TN... Although I seriously doubt even in NC a holstered firearm violates either of those two laws either... if it does, I'm glad I don't live in NC... BTW how do you like not being able to carry today since your governor declared the entire state in a state of emergency?

I carry or have a firearm at arms length at all times in my home. Although I'm not armed with my EDC setup once I walk through the door, generally just a P3AT in my pocket.

Nobody is suggesting you must allow anybody armed into your home... Only that you can't threaten deadly force if you invite them into your home and then discover they are armed. The issue people have is with your reaction to finding somebody invited but armed.... isn't legal.

39-17-13xx covers most firearm laws... The part you'll be interested in is 39-17-1359 which is the posting requirement. The law won't state that you can carry into a persons home without consent, it will only state where you can't carry. Unless the home or business is posted per 39-17-1359 (note the language on the website Punisher posted is old) you're fine to carry there unless you're asked to leave.

If it bothered you, you might consider contacting the department the officer works for an filing a complaint. Nothing wrong with stopping and asking for a permit (but lets be honest if the weapon is in the holster what are the chances the person doesn't have a permit?)... but it sounds like the officer in question went a bit too far in the lecture. Wonder if the CLEO for his department thinks?

It's coming... Palmer vs Washington DC

This is my thought process... the mag in the gun isn't enough... you should always carry a reload.. If you're going to bother to put a single mag pouch on your belt, whats another pound for a second? This is pretty much the minimum loadout for any uniformed police officer. If I know I'm going someplace 'questionable' I always wear 5.11 shorts or pants, so I'll toss another mag in my front magazine pocket. If you're going to carry a BUG why not carry a spare mag for it... so my pocket holster has a slot, it helps break up 'printing' of the P3AT better.... The go bag and carbine are locked in the vehicle in a way where a bad guy isn't going to gain access to them in under 20-30 minutes without very specialized equipment. Virtually every major police force today has some type of patrol rifle in their vehicle... It only takes me a minute to grab my bag with the spare ammo and carbine and toss it in the vehicle every morning. Trust me, I've considered a much more paranoid load out It just isn't worth the extra time and weight. I don't have a normal schedule like most folks, I split my time between running my own business which can at times piss people off - I spend a great deal of my time rooting around peoples hard drives proving men have cheated on their wives, purchased the services of hookers, or have 'questionable' taste in porn Which often times impacts custody arrangements or embarrasses the man publicly. The rest of my day I help run a number of family businesses, which uses a good bit of cash. I'm often running between these businesses sometimes with money on me, often times not in what I consider the best neighborhoods. Places where I don't allow my wife to go during the day, I often get the call to run down there at 2am to look at something. (I'll note Mike and I are crawling around some of the same areas of town)... Guys keep in mind that Nashville is listed in the 10 top highest crime cities, we're not talking about driving around Fairview, or Watertown in the middle of the day, we're talking about Nolensville and Thompson Lane, or Berry Hill at 2 or 3am in the morning. In my past job, I worked for a fortune 100 company doing computer investigations, this resulted in over 300 people loosing their jobs, usually for very embarrassing reasons... Some of those investigations lead to arrests and convictions putting people in prison.. in more than one case requiring them to register for life as a sex offender. I've worked cases which involved organized drug gangs and identify theft rings where my evidence lead to a number of convictions. My hope is I never run across any of these folks... but if I do I don't want to be under prepared. You're right, if I had a 8 to 5 desk job working on servers, or managing people... I wouldn't need the loadout I have... Maybe my loadout isn't so paranoid?

I might have missed it, but it appears you can get a permit to own a pistol, but not one to carry... I did some research looking to retire down that way, and found that SA and gun rights don't seem to mix. For SURE there is no such thing as shall issue permits for ownership let alone for carry down there... As bad as we think the gun laws are here, they're worse (because of the American backed and funded CIFTA treaty).

I'd call TDOS explain to them what you're planning on doing, and ask them where you residence would be in that case... I'd ask for an opinion letter in writing from the Department and then not worry about it. Most likely it's going to be the church or your mother-in-laws house.

I must be paranoid then I carry a Glock 19 (15+1) plus weak side 2 15 round mags... I carry a P3AT as a BUG (6+1) plus another 6 round mag. If I'm going somewhere questionable, I'll toss a 17 round Glock mag in my 5.11 magazine pocket. So between 59-76 rounds... normally. Go bag has another 4 17 round Glock mags, 2 P3AT mags, and another 50 rounds of 9mm, and 380, plus a KelTec Sub-2000 carbine with a 17 round mag (notice the lack of a +1) in the vehicle.