JayC

They might... there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence one way or another... I look at it this way... if a criminal is going to start shooting, do I want to be open carrying or unarmed... and the choice is clear. There is a real concern when open carrying, it's not something people should do on a whim... I'm for sure not advocating open carrying for the purpose of making a statement. If I have a choice, I always choose to conceal... but I choose to go armed, before unarmed unless legally obligated to do otherwise (and I have no choice in the matter).

I own 3 of the 'tuckable' holsters... two which are most often suggested and rated the highest the supertuck and CTAC, both are so uncomfortable I refuse to wear them. They also don't tuck your shirt in well IMHO. I wear a sport coat often, but during the summer it's just too hot for me... everybody is different... but I hate to see people think they can't carry unless it's concealed for fear they might upset some sheeple.... it's much better to be armed than not when you need it.

Best of luck to you wearing a light wind breaker in 95+ degree heat in the middle of the summer I'll stick to my short sleeve shirt Obviously wearing a jacket or dress coat covers a weapon up... As I've said before I think if you dress and act appropriately people tend not to notice or if they do don't care that you're OC'ing... I've got a lot of experience OC'ing during the summer months, and have never had a single problem, never been approached, and I suspect my style of dress plays a role in that fact. I personally feel that a handgun worn OWB holster is much less likely to cause MWG calls than the guy in dirty blue jeans and a t shirt that rides up and prints/displays he's carrying... but that is my opinion as well... Either way, I recommend to people (HCP holders) to always carry a firearm with them when they can, avoid places where firearms aren't allowed, and conceal when possible, but if the choice is between OCing a pistol and not carrying one, always pick having the firearm with them. As for the 'tactical' comment, I'm not a cop either... but I tend to use common sense and understand that the first step in not having a problem is to stay away from trouble spots when you can avoid them... Crime can happen anywhere, it just has a habit of happening in certain areas at certain times of day a lot more often than everywhere else... It's not smart to go to a street corner where drug dealers are selling crack at 2am... so I tend to avoid such places Movie theaters after dark are right up there in my book They are much more prone to criminal activity because they're open late and have huge parking lots which are often poorly lit. Because of this, I tend to avoid them - along with the fact their overpriced tickets, foods, and uncomfortable chairs Example A: Marine, wife attacked by teens after showing of "Little Fockers" - OrlandoSentinel.com I'm very comfortable in my ability to use my carry firearms, I spend a lot of time keeping my skills sharp just in case the worse happens... When I'm out and about I focus on keeping situational awareness of my surroundings... But the first lesson in situational awareness is to avoid danger areas when possible... and IMHO movie theaters after dark are such danger areas. Just remember the goal is to avoid the need to use your firearm to begin with, and that starts by staying out of situations that force you to use it. Further, there is nothing at that movie theater worth my life or the family's life, that can't wait until daylight or better yet until it comes out on DVD. We can't live our lives hiding from all danger, but it's important to weight the risks vs the reward, and in my personal opinion movie theaters after dark/late at night don't offer enough reward. I'm not a coward who is afraid of his own shadow... if I had a good reason to be someplace at 1am, I'll be there with my eyes wide open, but I just don't think it's wise to go looking for trouble... or as one person on this forum loves to put it: Nothing good happens after midnight

Duhh, an untucked t shirt conceals a pistol better than a tucked in shirt... that's great if you want to and can wear untucked shirts. You guys keep missing the entire point of my post... There are some people who don't wear their shirts untucked.... For a number of different reasons including because their work dress code requires it, or because they were raised to keep their shirt tails tucked in I happen to be in both camps, I grew up being told to keep my shirt tucked in, and grown accustom to doing so, I'm not going to change my style of dress just so I can keep a firearm on my person for self defense. I understand others were raised differently, but in my social circles men tuck their shirts in I prefer to CC when possible, I even have a small collection of "fishing" vests to help with the task But, if my choices are OC or not to carry, I'm going to pick OC every time hands down.

It's been said time and time again there are lots of valid reasons to OC... Just because somebody can't comfortably carry the pistol of their choice concealed doesn't mean they should go unarmed, or have to select a substandard pistol/caliber they aren't comfortable with but can conceal. Everybody makes it out to be so easy to conceal carry from day to day, but they seem to gloss over all the compromises you have to make to conceal carry and in some cases those compromises aren't minor. Lets assume you want to carry a full size pistol in a reasonable caliber, 9mm, 40, or 45 (whether it be Glock, 1911, Beretta, M&P, Sig, etc)... You already own this pistol and don't want to have to buy another handgun for whatever reason. You already have a full wardrobe of clothes which fit, and you don't want to change the way you dress, and because of funding reasons have to desire to buy entirely different clothes for carry. Now because of work, you wear dress shirts and khakis to work... that is your preferred method of dress, you don't like wearing untucked shirts... So how exactly do you carry a full sized pistol concealed? - IWB holsters won't totally conceal the pistol, and likely won't work unless you're wearing pants 1 size bigger than you need. - Tuckable holsters again, likely won't work because they again need the pants to be larger than needed and while some have had success with them, I've yet to find one which will allow you to tuck your shirt in properly and feels comfortable enough to wear all day. Also they're expensive... costing from $65-$125 depending on the brand. Of course during certain parts of the year you can use a jacket to help conceal... but most folks aren't going to sit through a movie or dinner with a jacket on the entire time. OC is a compromise just like everything else... Buying an entire new wardrobe of pants isn't always possible, and poses a number of other problems including pants that don't fit right when you're not carrying. Buying a smaller firearm you can pocket carry or better conceal is expensive ($300-$500) and often means you must compromise caliber, barrel length, or round capacity. So, just go concealed and be safe isn't always an option. BTW, the argument that you *might* scare some sheeple is why people shouldn't open carry doesn't even hold water... Somebody shouldn't even consider some random persons feels when protecting themselves. And the incidents of OCers having problems is largely over blown, because I fall into the category above, I often during the summer open carry, I've never once had a problem, never once been approached by a police officer, nor asked to leave somewhere... And frankly if somebody asks me to leave I'm going to leave and never come back. The real question is WHY on earth is anybody still going to a movie theater? It's crazy from a tactical prospective... A high population of teens and twenty somethings many times late at night... For an entertainment only activity... The act of going to a movie theater at night violates every tactical rule in the book. Personally, I'll just watch the movies in a couple of months on PPV, in the comfort and safety of my own home for less money thank you.

Do you disagree that if you had received a $.10 hand out with your purchase of a handgun you could have learned everything you learned in that 8 hour class? Lets pretend that isn't enough... we could have the state issue a handgun carry manual that is 25 pages and available for download free of charge that would surly do a better job of informing the public than the current outdated class and videos. As for the two folks who needed help, would have likely received that help as part of buying their firearm or from an instructor/friends... or read the manual and figured it out for themselves. Even if 2 out of 20-30 people in your class needed a ton of help, why punish the other 90% into wasting 8 hours of their lives I'm all for training classes, just not state mandated ones.

You're probably right on the increased ND's... I doubt you'd see a sharp increase in innocent persons being killed by law abiding citizens though.

Krull, if you get banned it's going to because of the way your disagreeing not because you're disagreeing... Trust me if somebody could get banned for disagreeing around here I would have been gone a long time ago, I can't count how many times I've told David I thought he was completely wrong on a subject I've always done it with respect and without naming calling though... As far as certain people shouldn't carry a gun... how are we stopping those people today? Clearly the HCP class is not a factor that prevents virtually everybody with $100 and a clean record from completing... And there isn't blood running in the street so clearly the training is both a waste of time and money for the vast majority of people who take the course. I contend that a simple paper hand out when you buy your firearm would have the same impact as the training class at a cost of $.10 instead of $50-100 for the class. I'd encourage anybody who is going to carry a handgun on a regular basis you go to a training class, and practice on a regular basis, but that is my opinion on the matter, I'm smart enough to realize I have no business forcing my opinion on others. There are a number of states which require no test nor range time to receive a permit... show me the numbers where they are having a higher rate of ND's and killing of innocents from permit holders. I'm willing to bet you a beer you can't find such evidence, and surly if such evidence was out there the Brady campaign would be using it for full effect.

3 States have constitutional carry Dave, VT, AK, and now AZ. All 3 allow concealed carry without a permit. It would be nice for TN to be the fourth.

What is the real level of knowledge that needs to be passed on? The fact is the vast majority of firearm owners know enough to defend themselves. The training argument is invalid to begin with... Police Officer by far receive a LOT more training than the average HCP holder let alone the average citizen who owns a firearm. Yet police officers are 5 times more likely to kill an innocent person than your average citizen... 98% of the time a citizen is involved in a shooting, nobody except the bad guy ends up dead. Only about 2% of shootings by citizens end up with an innocent person being killed. And keep in mind that figure doesn't account for all the cases of where a firearm is displayed by not fired, and the bad guy runs away. (Since I know somebody is going to dispute police officer vs citizen innocent death rate: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf page 28. Comes from a study written by Clayton Cramer and David Kopel) I think we should encourage firearms training, it's helpful to train and practice as much as possible, but there is no need for the state to FORCE you to have 8 hours of virtually useless training in order to get a permit to carry a firearm in this state. Again, I ask, how many people are FAILING the current course? How many fail the written part virtually nobody... How many are failing the practical (shooting)... maybe 1-2% at most (probably a lot lower)... So why is it we need to pay $50-100 for a class, another $20-30 for ammo, to take a class that virtually everybody passes? Can we not have the same basic outcome by requiring people take a free (part of the state permit fee) open book test online and accomplish 98% of the same result we have today? Or do we even need it... could we end up with the same result and just hand out a safety/law brochure with every firearm purchase? I think the results would be pretty much identical to what we have today. Look at AZ, they have constitutional carry, how many non-permit holders have killed an innocent person by mistake during a self defense shooting in the last 6 months... 0.

Well that begs another question... why do we need hunters safety courses to hunt on private land in this state? Why not just make it again an online written course and do away with the shooting part... I'm sorry but standing in line waiting to shoot clay pigeons doesn't teach you much if anything about firearms safety. Do we really need the government getting involved in this?

You're buying into the progressive argument... We already have 20 million unlicensed drivers over the age of 16 on the roads today... They're called illegal immigrants... They're driving among us every day.... So no allowing everybody over the age of 16 to drive wouldn't drastically increase the number of wrecks, the streets wouldn't turn red with blood. The entire reason we all like handguns for self defense is because they're the BEST choice for self defense, light weight, easy to use, and effective. The VAST majority of citizens can be handed a handgun, and defend themselves pretty well with it. With little to no training. The majority of the information on the test is worthless for HCP... Truth is most people don't need to know the difference between a j frame and a k frame revolver to carry a firearm for self protection. We should focus on the best of both worlds... keeping the current HCP for those who want to carry in other states, and a constitutional carry for all citizens of TN, which requires you to pass the background check to purchase the firearm.

Are you sure he failed, or did the instructors go back and let him re-take the shooting part of the class again? I've seen people have problems the first couple of times through the course, but the instructors continue to call those 'practice' until the person taking the test hits enough to pass. They're in the business to make people pass their class... They have a business incentive to make sure everybody passes their class.

Everybody? No, felon's and those who have been found mentally insane probably should have restrictions placed on their ability to carry concealed weapons. Everybody else, YES, we should encourage constitutional carry here in TN. Here is a question to ask yourself... What percentage of people who pass the background check fail the HCP class? Virtually 0. How many people failed your HCP class? Ask all your friends with HCP's, how many failed their class? The class is not weeding out anybody from the process, and should be done away with... The state could create a website place the outdated videos and study materials on it, and have a online test, and they would probably have a higher failure rate than the current HCP class. People should not be required to pay a third party $50-$100 for a class and WASTE 8 hours of their lives, on top of $115 to the state to exercise a right to bear arms (DaveTN would say it's not a right if you have to ask permission and pay for the privilege). I'll give you a hint... Gun Stores, and Firearm Instructors like the easy money the HCP class provides, it's a government backed subsidy, and they'll fight tooth and nail to prevent it from being taken away. I'm all for a simple test, if you can legally own it, you can legally carry it.... period... simple law. Truth is the number of deaths will decrease from such legislation, even if you factor in a few more cases of citizen gun carries making mistakes.

I have a P3AT that I carry in my back pocket... the DeSantis Super Fly (DeSantis Super Fly Pocket Holster Ambidextrous Kel-Tec P3AT, Ruger LCP with Crimson Trace Lasergrips Nylon Black - MidwayUSA) works great, the extra flap keep the firearm from printing, it gives a clear outline of a wallet.

Air Force Flight Gloves... Very warm, but easy to operate firearms with them on... You can find them at USCav for $20ish.

I didn't say TN was an F... Just average at best. BTW I didn't count MI in any of my totals above... So yeah compared to MI, we're a little bit ahead... not much... just a little bit. Compared to AZ, we're a lot behind.

I'm sorry but TN is WAY behind a lot of states as far as gun laws go... Using NY, IL, or CA is a benchmark isn't a very good benchmark. Lets go over some of the things we can't do that a lot of other states can: Unlicensed Concealed Carry - 3 States Unlicensed Open Carry - 12 States College Carry not against state law - 27 States And until just a year ago: Restaurant Carry We are a shall issue state (with at least one big exception), we do allow private sales, and generally ownership is pretty relaxed... but our laws are a complete mess, it's nearly impossible for the average police officer/HCP holder to truly understand what is or isn't legal, let alone your average citizen. Best case, we're running about a C if graded against the other 50 states, about 7% are doing great (AK, AZ, VT), about 20-50% are ahead of us in someway shape or form. So yeah lets all celebrate the mediocrity that are TN gun laws

OhShoot, I agree it's legal, and the vast majority of IL gun laws are unconstitutional... But, there are documented cases in Chicago and New York of police officers arresting people who aren't violating the federal law... Most of these involve flying into and out of airports, but it might be wise to avoid IL altogether.... Why give them any tax money from gas and food purchases if they're going to be a socialist police state?

Sounds like you need a better job, where you don't have to enter a 'gun free killing zone' to go to work Then the look on your face would only happen when you forget your firearm

Yeah, but the Heller opinion seems to state things other than firearms are covered by the 2nd Amendment... Clearly swords, tomahawks, bayonets would be covered by the 2nd Amendment since there were commonly issued and held arms at the time the Bill of Rights were ratified.... I think the focus is on firearms because they offer the easiest and best solution today for personal protection... It just seems to me that trying to make the argument that you can carry a firearm which is much easier to conceal and much more efficient at doing damage, negates the ability to argue that knives, canes, clubs, batons, etc which are much less dangerous must be banned outright? I think it's a trap to say the 2nd Amendment only deals with firearms... I think as a lobby we should push that *any* weapon that can be used in self defense or the making of war that can be carried and operated by a single man/woman should be covered. My personal concern is that as technology advances and something is developed that is more effective than firearms, it should also be covered as an arm under the 2nd Amendment. I believe you're correct it's hard to defend a good number of these laws on the books today, and without focused efforts to repeal, it's likely we won't see serious changes... I'm curious to see how Palmer v DC is resolved as I think that case could be our Brown v School Board case for 2nd Amendment supporters.

Mike, I'm curious what you think the impact of the McDonald v Chicago ruling will have on the carrying of other 'arms' such as canes, clubs, knives etc for the purpose of self defense? Since the 2nd Amendment now covers states, could we possibly see successful challenges to complete bans on said "arms"?

Sounds like yet another wonderful law that needs to be repealed

1 round in the chamber, and a full magazine... If you need to use it, chances are you'll wish you had a round in the chamber already.

I carry a P3AT as a BUG as well... but there are times that I carry deposits to the bank, or have to go to one of the businesses late at night, and I'm just not comfortable with 6+1 380 rounds plus a backup mag, I want something more I'm luck I don't have the work problem Since I'm self employed I can carry what I want to while working. I don't ever wear untucked shirts... when I go out it's 5.11 pants or slacks and a tucked in button down shirt... just my style of dress, when the weather permits I wear a shoot me vest or jacket to conceal The sumner poses a bigger problem, since I often wear shorts while out and about... I'm not trying to sell my style of carry to anybody else Everybody is different and they have to find what works best for them.. what is comfortable for them... I'm a lot less concerned about open carry than I am about being caught without a firearm when I need it...