JayC

Or you tell him, he takes the firearm "for officer safety" and shoots himself in the head by mistake... We can all dream up crazy situations that aren't going to happen. Until they change the disarm law to have some sense of sanity, it's probably best not to offer up you're carrying unless they ask to see your permit, or they somehow stumble upon the firearm before running your DL.

Probably because in most states TICS would be unconstitutional, but it's also unconstitutional here in TN.

How do we know he is a dumbass exactly? Did you get a look at the police report or something? I find it highly unlikely he's going to be charged with anything... Again we don't know the facts... but one thing is certain he wasn't cited, or arrested at the scene, and the statement from the police PIO doesn't seem to indicated they are considering charges at this time.

We're already held to a higher standard.... and the way to affect change isn't to police ourselves... it's to stop voting for legislators who don't support the second amendment... and make their lives very uncomfortable when they don't vote for common sense... Instead of fighting for the parking lot bill, which IMHO is a bad law... we should be fighting for constitutional carry, or the removal of the criminal penalty for violating 1359, which is virtually a completely unenforced law. or even better yet, expand carry in your vehicle to the home and property defense. We know of 2 cases where it was charged in the last 10 years, both involve the Memphis airport and the attempt to take a firearm into the secure area, which is already a violation of state and federal law... and it doesn't appear anybody has been convicted... So why do we need a stupid law on the books if nobody has been convicted in the last 10 years, and only 2 people have been charged, and in both cases much more serious criminal offenses were also charged?

Seems like the police are considering it a justified shooting... and his rounds didn't hit anybody else... I don't see why everybody is unhappy with the outcome? We have no idea how far away he was when the shooting took place, or any other details... clearly it doesn't appear the HCP holder was charged with a crime.

He is required by law to sign it... Tennessee has a law requiring CLEO to sign all ATF documents.

He already has another permit (from Florida I believe)... and no, in most shall issue states the fact that he has had a permit revoked here would not prevent him from getting a permit in another state. These is some question as to whether re-applying here in TN, they would be required to issue him a new permit... Since the item they used to revoke his old permit is not one of the reasons they can deny issuing a permit for... If he was denied... It would also likely allow him to re-open his appeal process, since he'd have a new action with which to challenge them not issuing him a permit. Frankly is he's not moving I'm somewhat surprised he hasn't gone that route.... or even better yet applied for an HCP Instructors license

First, I don't believe the rangers knew about him, this planned 'protest' or 'lawsuit bait'... I think it was only after this case that police officers were alerted to his actions and they started monitoring him... There was a BOLO sent out about him, which included website posts that seem to indicate he was considering a similar visit to the bicentennial mall (which is smack in downtown Nashville and about the size of a postage stamp compared to Radnor Lake). Second, if he was spotted doing this back at Radnor, or some other state park, and the ranger knew it was him, they would loose all RAS for a terry stop or a permit check. Anything more than a consensual interaction would in itself be a violation of his rights.. Because they would have known he had a valid HCP, and was there doing this as a 'protest'/'lawsuit bait' and not a risk to the public at large. (Again speaking in the past before the Belle Meade incident and his permit being revoked). Third, what you're suggesting is exactly what we don't want police officers doing... If there was any evidence that they 'decided to make an example' out of him, then I (and I hope everybody else) would not only be calling for the said officers to loose their jobs, but would be supporting his lawsuit as a valid violation of his civil rights. We want officers who investigate crimes and lock up the criminals... if they know somebody is acting within the law, and they still take action, that is the very definition of abuse and corruption. The fact remains, these type of people are real life internet trolls... ignore them and they'll go away... feed them with over reaction and they become the stray cat you feed that will never leave... The fact is if 'the one who can't be named' had been a bit smarter he likely would have been successful in getting his permit back... luckily until we pass constitutional carry in this state, he has to go down to GA or up to KY to cause issues.

I don't disagree that his action would have caused concern... I don't disagree that police officers should go out and have a consensual chat with a person carrying what appears to be an AK... I also don't have a problem with them doing a permit check to make sure the guy isn't a nut job... If after the first encounter they still had questions, fine go have another chat.... My issue is after what appears to have been a fairly normal encounter (going by the statements from the first ranger), they suddenly felt the need to point a shotgun at this guy (do a felon stop)... is he an attention whore? sure... does it appear he was fishing for a lawsuit? I'd say yes... but he didn't do anything illegal, and didn't pose a threat to the officer or anybody else... Knowing what the officers knew at the end of the first encounter... they had a valid HCP permit holder, who did not act hostile towards them, who claimed to be carrying a pistol (even though it didn't look like a pistol)... somehow they went from those set of facts to, we must point a shotgun at this guy, and have him lay down on the ground, so we can ask him more questions about the firearm. How exactly do we get from the first encounter, to the 2nd? I just don't see the REASONABLE suspicion that he was about to go on a shooting rampage given the set of facts they knew at the time. While Radnor Lake isn't miles and miles from civilization it's also not downtown Nashville.... There weren't crowds of people there... none of the tell tale signs of a mass shooting about to happen... Context is everything... Here is the real fact... these 'attention whores' as you like to call them... go around doing stuff as 'lawsuit bait' for a reason... it works... for some reason police officers can't seem to deal with odd and strange very well, and over react... And this case is a perfect example of over reaction. As a perfect example: http://www.policeone.com/Patrol-Video/articles/5930343-Video-Cops-expert-open-carry-response-goes-viral/ Here you have almost the exact same situation as Radnor Lake... attention whore carrying what appears to be a sub machine gun - check.... In a much more public location than Radnor Lake - check... This is the first encounter from this officer... take a look at how he handled the situation... then compare it to how the situation at Radnor Lake was handled... The link, a good example of how to handle attention whores who aren't breaking the law... Radnor Lake, a perfect example in over reaction.

While I don't want to get into a general tax discussion... There is no limit to the legislatures power to regulate or tax land or property in the state constitution. There is on the other hand such a limitation on regulation of arms, don't in 1870 arms meant the firearm, powder, and ball. Maybe the general sales tax which applies to everything isn't unconstitutional... But the special ammo tax is just as uncontitutional as TICS.

Great, if the TWRA wants to have ranges, fine, support them with range fees or with excess money from permits and licenses. Why should I have to pay tax dollars (a special ammo tax) to support a range I never use? First, if there is a government program that hands out 'grant' money, there is always waste and fraud... It's waste by it's very nature... I've explained my crazy thinking on the tax above.

Ammo is an arm just like the gun you use to shoot it... The Legislature is limited to only regulating the wearing of arms, not to purchasing of said arms... By imposing a special ammo tax they are further regulating the purchasing of arms....

I'm pretty sure at the time, it was $500, and the fine was raised after that point... but I could be wrong... and lets be honest... nobody is going to spend any time in jail over this... remember you have an intent issue within the law... if you intended to carry via the HCP and made a good faith effort to do so, very few DAs are going to take the time to send you to jail... most are going to plead this down to community service and loosing the weapon.

Yes it is illegal under both state and federal law to construct and display a hoax bomb. (again there are exceptions to the law, but the act you describe is illegal). It is illegal to go armed with a bladed weapon in TN, and they're not covered under the HCP exception. Depends, on the situation, but current case law would suggest no it's completely legal, and not cause for a terry stop. Sure it's legal, and wouldn't be cause to support a terry stop in and of itself. We'll have to agree to disagree on whom is the problem... I think there is a bunch of blame to go around on this one... A turd who tried to get the police to over react, and then the police who fell for it, and over reacted... are equally at faulty. We've recently seen a video of another police officer confronted with almost this exactly same situation... somebody openly carrying an mp5 style pistol... I think we would all agree that officer handled the situation by the book and didn't over react... while the officers in question in this case... at best over reacted.

1. It's unconstitutional (as in the state constitution) 2. TWRA should get all of it's money from hunting licenses (and don't even get me started on those). You should look at the waste and fraud inside the TWRA's budget... and while should I as a sports shooter be paying for the TWRA... I get no benefit from the TWRA since I don't hunt. If the TWRA can't operating on the revenue from hunting licenses then maybe we should get rid of the TWRA?

Couple of clarifications... just to keep everybody honest. 1. He was wearing a M86 BDU (old style woodland bdu blouse) top as a jacket on a cooler day, he wasn't in all camo... I'm sure a number of TGO members own and from time to time wear a old military top as a heavy shirt or jacket while hiking. 2. He only 'demanded' to see a supervisor when the police attempted to make him sign a ticket charging him with a violation of the law. He refused and asked to see a supervisor... They didn't offer to let him go without signing a ticket before the supervisor was on site. I'm not arguing for 'you know who' only pointing out that we should keep the fact straight on exactly what happened.

Yeah, that is going to happen... You've got a guy with a known good HCP, he claims the firearm is a pistol... even if he's wrong, it's a misdemeanor with a $500 fine.... And we jump right to shooting someplace up as the excuse to hold somebody... It's not REASONABLE to think that somebody who claims to be carrying a pistol, who is a known law abiding citizen is going to suddenly go on a killing rampage... You have the firearm information, you have his information... make the calls if it turns out the DA wants to have him charged, he's not going to be all that hard to find. He could also be out to kill the Governor with that scary looking gun... or overthrow the government. I can play the what if game too... doesn't mean any of my what if's are reasonable... Police departments have qualified immunity, if the officer acts in good faith then nobody is to blame (and while I might not agree with qualified immunity that is an entirely different discussion).

Or how about you get the guys information... And if it turns out he was breaking the law go pick him up at home? You don't need to hold somebody for two or three hours on a possible technical violation which would end up being a small fine anyhow... You have the model/serial number of the firearm, and the information off a known good HCP... Is he really going to be that hard to track down if you let him go?

How about we get rid of the unconstitutional TICS and special ammo taxes we have to pay?

And what happens if an overpaid government bureaucrat decided you're one of those people? It's not a power we the people of Tennessee gave to the federal government, nor a power we gave to the state government. Anyhow it's not legal for a resident of TN to carry on another state's permit. (unless they've been a resident for less than 6 months), but lets be honest the VAST majority of police officers would have no clue about that... I'm aware of sub-21 year olds who are carrying on out of state permits (who are not TN residents) and the police don't make a fuss about it with them.

And the first time they do... They run the risk of the legislature changing a single word from defense to exception. Remember the legislature came up with the current wording as a compromise with law enforcement groups back in the early 90's... Because we did have a serious problem of "over zealous" enforcement... Break that compromise and you might find the public awake and unwilling to compromise next time... The vast majority of HCP holders don't understand the difference between an exception and a defense... Do something stupid to highlight that difference and the voters may demand changes to the law.

Hard to hit the bad guy when you're trying to run away, shooting one handed, sideways and almost behind your back I've seen gangbangers with better firing discipline.

No, the state should leave church's alone... much more so than they leave businesses alone... I'm surprised nobody has tried to raise a 1st Amendment case against these anti-carry church laws. I can't imagine the laws surviving any serious court challenge.

The sign he's talking about isn't a 39-17-1359 posting, so NO the bar isn't off limits... It's an out dated sign that the ABC requires (yes it's still on their checklist to make sure you have the sign), even though the law the sign refers to has been repealed and is off the books. I can tell you from personal experience it's still on the ABC checklist (as of about 6 months ago), and the 'inspectors' go off the checklist, it's like trying to argue with a meter maid about a parking ticket... it's on the checklist you must have it up, no matter what state laws says These signs can be complete ignored legally, they are not a legal form of posting and again the law they reference was repealed 2+ years ago. And I'd make the assumption in this case they are still being told to keep the sign up by the state inspector... so I wouldn't mention it to the manager or owner, and I wouldn't read too much into it (as in pro or anti gun), other than to bug the ABC board into updating their checklist.

They better give me a receipt for my pocket knife... Because sub 4 inch blades aren't weapons under state law, and the police have no right to take personal property without cause.