JayC

Good news, what district is Karen over?

Here are some key talking points... 1. The ordinance as currently worded not only bans HCP Holders but would appear to place a ban on owners and employees from carrying inside their businesses to protect themselves. So they're not just preventing HCP carry, they're also removing rights business owners have today and have had for years. 2. Passing this ordinance will impose a 3-4% loss or more on Davidson County Restaurants while places in Mt Juliet, CoolSprings, Smyrna, and Hendersonville will not have to turn away these customers. This will drive away law abiding citizens from Davidson County restaurants which costs the businesses and the county income and taxes. 3. Arguments that having to post signs may hurt or drive away business are unreasonable. Current law requires that business already have no firearms signs posted (if they serve beer), in all likely hood the additional signage would go unnoticed. 4. Passing an ordinance that if different than the rest of the state needs to required additional signage because we need to inform these law abiding citizens that Metro is different from the rest of the state (which further invalidates #3). 5. It's likely the ordinance would violate 39-17-1314 and it's very likely that the NRA or some other Gun Owners organization will file suit over the ordinance, costing tax payers to spend money defending an illegal ordinance. 6. Other tourism heavy states such as Florida and Texas have allowed restaurant carry for many years, and have had few if any problems resulting from allowing permit holders carry in restaurants. The facts don't support that either state lost tourism dollars from passing restaurant carry laws. 7. Owners today can post their businesses if they do not wish to have HCP holders as customers, while business who may wish to cater to these customers may choose not to post. Just like with smoking bans, the local business owner should be able to make up his mind whether he allows carry or not, the council should not force business to turn away these customers in this economy. 8. HCP Holders aren't the problem, criminals (who can't legally get permits) are the problem, we can cite a number of attacks involving firearms locally over the last few years, but nobody can document a case of a HCP holder illegally opening fire in a restaurant. 9. Does the council member eat at Shoney's or McD's (insert restaurant name here)? If so they most likely have been sitting down to eat next to a permit holder over the last 12+ years, have they felt unsafe in those restaurants? 9. These same claims that blood would run in the street were published in the papers 12+ years ago when HCP was passed, and that is far from the truth, today HCP holders have some of the best safety records of anybody legally (or illegally) carrying firearms in the state. Hope that helps... Sorry for the rant...

Well, it seems the thought process is they aren't banning guns, they just banning businesses who don't ban guns. And since the beer board is under local city government, they argue it doesn't violate current state law. Clearly 39-17-1314 seems to prevent this, but I don't want to be the test case... Best bet is to put pressure on the Metro Council to not move forward because this would violate 39-17-1314 and the will of the people of TN. Second best is to try and get the Legislature to close this type of loophole once and for all.

I wouldn't be so confident... This is the same legislature that couldn't pass a clean parks bill... Are you positive they will pass a bill to remove control from local beer boards? This won't stop with Nashville, if they get away with it, Memphis and other large cities will soon follow suit, and who knows what other local ordinances they'll start passing and enforcing about guns. I haven't found an AG letter on point for this... Fall if you're aware of any that touch on this please provide a link... I'm calling a bunch of council critters back tomorrow and would love more ammo.

Well since we're talking about a new ordinance the 1986 date doesn't apply.... Trying to fight this after it passes would require a successful lawsuit, which may take many years to complete... Much better for us to put public pressure on the council members now before it passes, than play that game. It appears to me that 39-17-1314 is on point but again it would take a lawsuit to get 39-17-1314 to be enforced. At least that is my understanding. Second choice would be to get the TN Legislature to pass another law that completely closed this loop hole for good. But that would likely take the better part of a year.

Agreed, 39-17-1314 seems to prevent this type of ordiance but fighting that lawsuit may take years... First step is to place a lot of pressure on the Nashville Metro Council, if you live, work, shop, or otherwise visit Nashville on a regular basis, contact the At-Large Council members as well as the District members for the areas you live/visit. Failing that, the next best option is to get the TN Legislature to revoke this "loop hole" in state law but that will likely be next year from my understanding at the earliest. Another possible solution would be to get the TN AG to publish a opinion letter, but who knows if that would be in our favor or not. Putting a lot of pressure on the council is the best bet right now.

Yeah, phone calls work much better he's forced to listen for a few minutes before blowing you off. It appears these guys don't get a lot of phone calls about stuff, making sure they know there is a large vocal group out there may wave them off this idea. Remember to mention 39-17-1314 and ask them how they're not impacted by that law...

Pushing the cost onto business who would be happy to allow HCP holders isn't the way to win this fight. Businesses should be allowed to weight the pros and cons and post if they do not wish HCP holders as customers. This is a few outspoken critics trying to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want to post their business because they know it will cost them business if they do, so they want to force everybody to be posted.

You don't know how many members of the Metro Council I've spoken with today that had similar miss information they were basing their arguments on. Although I'm concerned Davidson County (and shortly there after all the big city counties will follow suit) will be a lost cause for HCP restaurant carry for at least a year if not longer.

Thanks for emailing, but if you get time to make a personal call and express your thoughts on how this will negativity impact your and/or your business/shopping/dining in Nashville/Davidson County it would help a lot. These council members aren't getting the full side of the argument only what they read in the paper and hear from a few loud restaurant owners and their paid lobbyist.

As you requested... Nashville.gov - Metro Council Feedback Form Step 1 choose "Entire Metro Council" and fill out the rest... Not sure if they'll read the emails but it can't hurt. I'd also strongly suggest calling too...

The only thing going for us is the fact that 39-17-1314 blocks any regulation relating to the possession of firearms after April 1st 1986... I'm not exactly sure how requiring businesses to ban is any different than banning out right from a legal stand point. Now getting 39-17-1314 enforced in short order is the hard part, best bet is to put pressure on the Metro Council to not pass this ordinance to being with.

If this works for Nashville, nothing will stop the beer boards for surrounding counties and cities from doing the exact same thing. One of the few good things about our states firearm laws were that they are the same all over the state. If we let these types of games be played by local county and city governments, we'll all have to carry around a chart to show where we can or can't carry.

Under the law it does... possession is the act of carrying a firearm under TN law currently. The real question for the courts will be whether the beer board is 1. part of a government covered by 39-17-1314, and 2. that them not granting beer permits based on requiring businesses to post is "any part of the field of regulation of the" possession. The truth is they can pass it, get Beer Board to enforce it, and we get to spend the next X number of years fighting it in court via the NRA or some other gun group. Or get the legislature to pass a law that closes the "supposed" loop hole. Another course would be to try and get a opinion letter from the AG stating that this would be a violation of 39-17-1314, but how likely that is who knows. I have a meeting with my State Senator on Monday, I'm going to press him to introduce legislation to close this "supposed" loop hole. But it's likely that would take the better part of a year to work it's way through the legislature.

Guys, I spoke with Charlie Tygard this afternoon, they are serious about this ordinance, and are trying to force business to post in order to have a beer permit... Best not to wait until after they have proposed the ordinance but to go ahead and get in touch with the Metro Council now not later... FYI, here is the link to the list of Nashville Council Members, included are phone numbers and email addresses. If you live inside Davidson County you should at least email and/or call all the at large members and any members who cover areas where you live, work, and dine out. Although comments to all wouldn't hurt either. Nashville.gov - Metro Council - Council Roster

FYI, here is the link to the list of Nashville Council Members, included are phone numbers and email addresses. If you live inside Davidson County you should at least email and/or call all the at large members and any members who cover areas where you live, work, and dine out. Although comments to all wouldn't hurt either. http://www.nashville.gov/council/council_roster.htm

Just a heads up, got off the phone with Bo Mitchell 35th District Councilmember (Bellevue area)... He's not only for this beer permit ordiance, he's also said while I was on the phone that only police officers should be allowed to carry handguns that would solve a lot of issues. Even though he claims to be "pro 2A". Nashville.gov - Metro Council - District 35 Councilmember Bo Mitchell

Yes very much so... everybody should be sending them emails and phone calls. Also, having people show up for the council meets to speak out against this ordinance would be a huge help as well.

Probably not this session.

Well Charlie indicated that some restaurant owners are concerned they'll loose business if they choose to post, so basically they want to force a level playing field. Most of these restaurant owners don't even live in Davidson County.

That is the game plan to require you to post to have a beer permit.

If you live in Davidson County, please give Charlie a call or send him an email I just got off the phone with him and he's only heard for half a dozen people before me on this matter and all (except for me) were in favor of an ordinance. A very vocal minority of restaurant owners don't want to loose business by having to post, and therefore are trying to force all restaurants with a beer permit to not allow HCP holders.

I seriously don't see that going anywhere... Nashville Metro knows they can't pass anti-firearms laws under current state law... Any attempt would be over turned by the courts.

I don't know if I agree completely... as much as we like to mock the left, their tactics for forcing change seem to work pretty well... I remember the gay pride floats in big cities being a huge deal as a kid, small riots breaking out because of it... Last year I saw one in a small town here in Middle TN's parade and nobody said a word about it. I'm not saying we should go around wearing ass-less chaps... but being vocal and pushing the public at large and legislators to give us our rights back doesn't seem like such a bad idea. My argument is unless the group are horrible customers, very few restaurant owners are going to kick them out or post over it. It's hard to turn away 20-30 customers in this economy for any reason, let alone for carrying a gun legally.

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