JayC

I'm pretty sure LBL is a NATIONAL FOREST not a National Park. (As a matter of fact I'm sure LBL is part of the forest service not a national park) Big difference... National Forests appear to be covered by the parks carry bill, and should be allowed once that passes into law. There is some confusion about carry in a NF that happens to also be a WMA... So we might need some clarification on that... once the bill becomes law.

Lets just not let our guard down... nothing to stop somebody from re-introducing a better worded version of this bill. We should continue to push on TN legislature members to remove any possible loop hole.

This has been covered a number of times, there are NO bars licensed to serve liquor in the state of TN. Virtually all the places you're thinking are bars have restaurant liquor licenses, and as long as they're open 5 days a week (and serve some type of food) they are covered under HB0962 as currently written. The curfew and "age restricted venue" requirements were lifted in the TN Senate. So, technically TN doesn't have "bars" to carry a firearm into (at least not that serve liquor)... If they have a valid TN restaurant liquor license and are open 5 days a week or more, you may carry in them feeling safe the state has already verified they meet all the requirements under HB0962 starting on July 14th.

I'd be happy to sign your petition for office, as well as help you build a professional website for your campaign in the 35th district Just tell me when and where to show up to sign

I do as well (well not an iphone but on my person)... My concern is to play it safe for the next few months, in some of the big cities where the CLEO appears to be very anti-gun. I could see a chief talking a very hard line stance on postings and trying to push his luck to get some negative press over HCP holders... Not saying it would happen, just saying it's not outside the realm of possibility. I personally plan on carrying on July 14th, but I'll avoid restaurants who post at all (like I do with businesses who post today) because I don't want to give them my money... There are times I'll push it right now, places like the mall where it's the only place that sells something I need locally... Or going into the medical office building where my wife gets a test done, if those aren't properly posted, I still go in CC'ing... But largely where I have a choice I don't give my money willingly to people who want to see me walk unprotected into their parking lot after dark. I'm only cautioning people that currently it doesn't appear there is any case law on this subject and I wouldn't want to be the test case personally.

IANAL but here are the best answers I can give you. 1. It's generally believed that the signage must be nearly word for word... with some minor exceptions... For example instead of saying It probably would be a legal posting if it instead said: "No Guns" or "We do not allow guns to be carried...." would not be considered valid postings...You can refer to this TN AG letter which states just that. http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/TNAGOpPostingPrivateBldgs.pdf Just how much like the statue must the sign be? Who knows... it doesn't appear there is any direct case law on the subject. 2. I think each individual should make their own choice as to when and where to carry... there are risks to carrying even in a place that just uses a "no guns" sign. As for your question, if you carry and are confronted, 99% of the time they'll just ask you to leave, obviously you must under the law just like you would in any other establishment which is not legally posted, or risk being arrested. That other 1% of the time is the issue, if the police get involved you may very well end up arrested and charged with a crime, your handgun would likely be seized and you'd most likely have your HCP revoked while you awaited trial... After spending $1000's of dollars to defend yourself and get your HCP back, you'd likely not be convicted of anything. Keep in mind once an officer gets involved he is going to be the one to determine whether a posting meets the legal requirements, and as we all know officers knowledge of HCP rights and firearm laws are hit and miss at best in most departments. We still have officers who think it's illegal to carry into Krogers because they sell beer (not all, not even a majority but some)... So if you choose to carry in a business that improperly posts, there are risks, while you're very unlikely IMHO to be convicted, defending yourself from an overzealous business owner and/or officer might well cost you a great deal of time and/or money.

I hope you're right, after reading the proposed ordinance, in it's current form I don't see it passing.

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere already... but here is a copy of the proposed ordinance. http://tennessean.com/assets/pdf/DN13619965.PDF I see some major problems with it... I'll quote my post from over at TFA: This bill goes way past banning HCP holders... I seriously doubt once business owners are made aware of these restrictions it will kill the ordinance in it's current form.

The intent clearly violates 39-17-1314 IMHO, but without the exact text who knows... Hopefully the firestorm will keep this from going forward.

That appears to be the case, until the ordinance is posted to the internet I'm taking the word of a anti-gun council member that I spoke with. Keep in mind that what Nashville MPD chooses to consider a "properly" posted sign may be something completely different, and you likely would win in court, but that is after the arrest you, take your handgun and get your HCP revoked and you spend $1000's of dollars in legal fees.

Trust me, after 20 minutes speaking with Bo Mitchell yesterday, I was on the internet trying to figure out what it took to run against him in the next council election For somebody who "supports" the 2nd amendment you'd think he was reading straight off the Brady Campaign website during the call. The one thing the fight over HB0962 (and the silly Metro Council nonsense) has made me realize that I (and yes all of you too) need to be far more active in local politics to help fight this silly anti-2A dribble from the local press and paranoid liberals. Nashville is the 9th worse large city in the United States right now (yes I know Memphis is far worse), and people want to call me paranoid for wanting to protect myself and my family while dining out? I realize the chances that I or my family will be a victim of a violent crime on any one trip to a restaurant or the store to pick up milk are fairly slim, but if it happens I want to have the choice to protect them and myself. The truly paranoid people are these anti-gun folks who think that just because we have access to a restaurant that we will suddenly turn into raving drunks and start blasting away for no reason at all, that somehow they've been perfectly safe for the last 12 years in McD's and Walmart while we've been carrying but the mere presence of beer will make us loose all common sense and start shooting people over silly disagreements. That my friends is truly paranoid....

Well Tygard says a lot of things, but when I was on the phone with him, he clearly indicated he was doing this based on 6 restaurant owners calling him to complain... And that I was the first business owner to contact him in support of hb0962.... That is why I raised the red flag on this and other forums, figured dozens of phone calls against would get his attention. As far as pat down, I doubt it, but nothing stops them from coming into a restaurant and asking you if you have a HCP... Remember under the law you must prsent it if you do and have a firearm... Nothing stops the MPD from having special "gun free days" where they run all the licenses plates in a parking lot "looking for stolen cars" and then go inside if anybody comes back with having a HCP and see if they're carrying. I don't mean to sounds paranoid, but it seems to me the Serpas is about as anti-gun as they come, and given the chance to make some "public" arrests of HCP holders violating the law shortly after it's enacted (and we can all agree he'd get media coverage all over the state) would not be out of character for this guy. The above parking lot trick has been upheld in other states as not violating the law or consitution, and then going in and asking to see somebodies HCP is perfectly legal under current state law. I'm sure some former LEO's could come up with dozens of different ways they could do this if so tasked by Serpas. The key here if they are properly posted for whatever reason (keeping in mind that properly is up to the responding officer) then it would be illegal to carry in the restaurant. If this happens in 1 "class b" county it will surly follow suit in the others. And we'll be back to not being able to carry in the vast majority of big city restaurants in a matter of weeks after this bill takes effect.

I completely agree with Hex on this, but keep in mind that phone calls followed up by a personal email will go a lot farther than sending a mass email. If you have the time (and cell phone minutes) please take time to individual call as many council members as you can followed up by a quick email to them. If you don't have the time, mass email to all of them is better than nothing.

Very good plan... The more emails or phone calls they receive the better... Keep in mind if you have the time phone calls followed by a personal email will have the most impact IMHO. These guys unlike the state legislature do not have people answering the phone for them.

If you look at my other post you'll note I indicated he was sponsoring this ordinance.

Trust me it's not the authority they like having, it's the revenue.... They make a lot of money off of regulating beer sales.

Completely agree, the problem is that trying to enforce 39-17-1314 is likely to require a lawsuit which may take a significant amount of time. If the legislature can pass a law removing this possible loophole this session, we should encourage them to do so.

I agree they claim the issue is so they don't have to post... But I believe the real desire is so that some restaurants don't have to post but all do... They are required to have no firearm signs under current legislation/ordinances right now... I personally believe this is a small group of vocal restaurant owners who don't want he bad press and lost business because they post, so the solution in their minds is to make everybody post. Also, if they require all beer permit restaurants to properly post as part of getting their license, nothing will stop Nashville MPD from "spot" inspections at restaurants and then charging those people under the current state law (and what Nashville MPD considers properly posted may very well be something entirely different than we do..) Keep in mind they can still arrest you, and you'll have to spend $1000's of dollars in legal fees to get yourself cleared.

It appears they are not.

Nikki, any chance you could make some calls to the Metro City Council Members to try and cut off this proposed ordinance to prevent HCP carry via a back door way. It appears to violate 39-17-1314 on it's face, but as you know that won't stop them.

Some of us want to legally carry not become criminals to protect ourselves.... We should encourage Metro to violate 39-17-1314 just because we can get away with breaking the law like a common criminal. The whole point of getting this law passed was to allow us to legally carry in all restraurants in the state, not continue to go unarmed or be forced to break the law to protect ourselves.

I agree 39-17-1314 appears to prevent this type of ordinance, but how exactly are we to enforce it? The only method I'm aware of is to have somebody with standing file suit against Davidson County (beer board or council, not sure which), and spend lots of money over the next 3, 5, 10 years? Or go back to the state legislature and get them to close this "loop hole", which will take a nearly a year I'd guess. Keep in mind this is the same legislature that just passed an unclean law allowing local governments to prohibit carry in the parks. We need to continue the pressure a little while longer to prevent this from getting much worse.

Your welcome to... I'm going to try and go over GOA hand gun myths and pull out some more stats to help document how safe HCP users are nation wide compared to police officers.

Thank you. We need to try and place pressure on this now, before it gets passed. Loosing 39-17-1314 in anyway shape or form hurts the cause of HCP holders and Hunters all over the state. Having to know different firearm laws for every little city and county in the state would be a nightmare we should all want to avoid.

Tygard is an at large council member so he covers the entire county, but he lives in Bellevue and use to be our district council member... Are you in the 35th District as well? Tygard seemed to be in support of the measure and I believe he maybe the council member who will introduce this ordinance shortly (like in the next few days). He seemed to inndicate that before he knew I was pro-hb0962. Once I mentioned that fact he seemed to take middle of the road stance, but time will tell. I asked to have a face to face meeting with him, and he seemed open to the idea, I'm waiting to hear back from him shortly on when he can meet. (Hopefully he won't blow me off like some of his email responses have so far). But, I suspect he is pretty much for the ordinance from speaking to him.