JayC

I think we're mostly in agreement... with one notable exception... If/when HB0961 becomes law, except for some very limited cases (bow hunting for example)... Handgun carry will be allowed on state owned land that are WMAs... HB0961 removes the provision in the law for the TWRA to regulate the carry of handguns on WMAs (again with some limited exceptions as defined outside 70-5-101 and 70-4-117 - bow hunting as an example)... These two areas are cited in the published TWRA regulations as the law giving them the authority to restrict handgun carry on WMAs (not the hunters guide but the published regulations Fallguy linked a couple of pages back). Unless somewhere else in the law gives them authority to regulate firearms or handgun carry then TWRA won't have legal authority to regulate handgun carry. As Fallguy has noted, we've found one exception so far (bow hunting), there maybe more... And it would be helpful if people come across them to post a link to the law. Also it appears as written the long gun carry law does not impact WMAs, and we'll have to try and get that addressed next session.

I've requested a copy of the order be mailed to me (some reason they don't have it online or can email it) of the LBL General Order, once we see which level wrote the order, we'll have a good idea who can change it. My understanding is that it must be Forest Supervisor level or higher to sign such orders. And correct unless there is a General Order or similar regulation for Cherokee carry should be legal there. Or at least that is my understanding.

I believe the WMA (ie hunting) stuff is managed by the TWRA (as well as on the TN part of LBL)... but I think the Cherokee National Forest is ran and largely managed by the Forest Service, although I'm not positive of that.

I agree there are WMAs which are closed off at times, or only allow hunters with some exceptions during certain times of the year, but I haven't found a single WMA (there are some refuges which appear to be mostly closed all year) where the vast majority of the year isn't open to the general public for hiking for example during daylight hours. I agree fully there maybe times which you must have a valid hunting permit to be on WMAs (or be with somebody with a valid hunting permit) but generally speaking they are open to the public with some exceptions. The point I was trying to make before is that if you can legally be there (with the noted exception Fallguy has correctly pointed out with bow hunting) you can carry a handgun for self defense once HB0961 becomes law. For STATE owned WMAs (including those which are part of a state park since park carry covers that)... Federal land may be an entirely different matter if there is federal regulations or laws preventing carry such as a General Order at LBL preventing carry today. And there are a ton of WMAs which happen to be on federal land in this state and we'll have to check each and every one to verify that it's legal to carry a handgun on. But the state owned WMAs should be fine as soon as HB0961 which is still a large chunk of the WMAs in the state.

I think you did and I forgot, I stand corrected Fallguy.

I don't think we've ever said the TWRA didn't have laws allowing them to regulate firearms on WMAs, only that they are limited in what the can't regulate by state law. In this example, 70-4-117 is changed once 0961 becomes law, to allow HCP holders to carry, also 70-5-101 is also changed... Both of these are listed in TWRA rules and regulations for WMAs (Fallguy posted a link a few posts back) as the authority the TWRA currently uses to prohibit handguns on hunts. Once the law is changed, it will remove the TWRAs authority to prohibit such actions through regulations. I'm all for support the TWRA it can be a good state agency and does some good, but that doesn't mean I want to walk into a public woods unprotected. And hopefully hb0961 will become law in the next few days and that problem will go away.

If HB0961 becomes law then it adds the following exception to 70-4-117: So yes, once 0961 becomes law you'll be able to carry a handgun on WMAs. One thing I have been mistaken about... is that Long Gun Carry doesn't appear to impact WMAs it will still be illegal to carry a loaded long gun on WMAs even if you're driving to the range. Looks like we'll need to get another section added to it next session to allow that.

I don't disagree that violating a TWRA regulation can land you in front of a judge... Just that TWRA regulation is not above state law, and the bill and laws we're talking about here are going to force the change of some TWRA regulation because the law removes their ability to regulate certain things. The intent of the legislature is for HCP holders to be able to carry while hunting (or any other acvtivity) on these state controled lands, any attempt by the TWRA to block that intent will likely be resolved next session by the legislature (BTW it's my understanding the TWRA was onboard with the language of the current WMA carry bill, and the long gun carry bill so I suspect this will truely be a non-issue). You say many WMA's are off limits to everybody except hunters, I've skimmed through the 2009 Hunters Guide and can't seem to find any WMAs with such limits, can you please provide an example of a WMA which is closed to everybody except hunters? Also you state that some WMAs are on private land, I'm aware of Public Hunting Areas, but I'm not aware of any WMAs on privately leased land... Can you provide an example of a WMA on private land leased to the state? (I'm very aware we have a good bit of Federal land that happens to be state managed WMAs, but that is different from privately owned land). I don't think anybody here is encouraging that somebody breaks the law, or runs amuck of TWRA regulations, I too and curious to see exactly what the TWRA says is or isn't allowed, because there are some grey areas with hunting that the current bill IMHO doesn't completely cover. I suspect the example given that you may legally carry a handgun for self defense (with a HCP) while bow hunting will be legal this season. As I can't find a state law that would prevent you from doing so once 0961 becomes law.

Do we (TN) entirely managed Cherokee NF? I thought it was managed by the Forest Service? The department I called at both LBL and Cherokee claimed to be Forest Service (federal) employees. Yeah getting the general order re worded would solve the problem. If we do run either of these sites then forcing a change wouldn't be as hard.

I'm sorry Patty, but that is not how the law works, most of TWRA rules are regulations not laws... The intent of the legislature is for HCP holders to be able to carry a handgun for self protection in all state parks, state forests (and if 0961 becomes law) and state owned WMAs at all times... With one exception being you can't use the handgun to take game unless also allowed under TWRA hunting regulations... If the TWRA finds some loophole that prevents HCP from carrying all year round on these lands, I'm confident the legislature will close such a loophole in short order (It took less than 2 weeks to close the beer permit loophole). I'll also note, that the current parks carry and wma carry in regard to state parks, forests, and wmas doesn't allow posting of the property under state law. I understand TWRA is concerned about poaching, but the fact is HCP holders aren't the problem, and the TWRA to a certain extent is just going to have to get over it.

Yeah, so we can attack this on the federal level, or the state level... both would work... Having the TWRA consider the HCP a type of "hunting permit" with a 365 day season for self defense would solve the problem with the general order at LBL Still waiting to hear back from Cherokee I'll call them again on Monday and see if I can get a call back this time.

Can you point to the law where we're prohibited from carrying loaded long guns in our vehicles on WMA land? I understand there is a law prohibiting possession in the field, but I haven't seen one about possession in a vehicle. Please provide a cite...

Yes we could come at this from either direction... but it is my understanding the person who makes this call is a political appointment (that is what the LEO answering the phone at the LBL said)... So my hopes of them choosing to change the general order aren't high... I'm not sure how the Feb 2010 law will impact this, does anybody have a link to the text of that amendment?

It appears to vary from one Forest Service managed area to another, the one for LBL was signed by a Forest Supervisor who from my understanding is a political appointment (read political lackey)... But yes we're going to have to check every bit of federally managed land to see if there are general orders prohibiting guns and get that documentation posted.

I think you'd be surprised just how little people notice... People just don't spend that much time looking at you waist to notice exactly what you're carrying IMHO... I've worn just a loose fit t-shirt over a Serpa CQC holster... A police officer or another HCP holder would have made me pretty quick, but my entire extended family didn't even notice after spending the entire day with them. Better to be comfortable and carry all the time (even if you print or the holster peaks out every once and awhile) than to leave the gun at home.

The general order (which was worked out with the help of the TWRA) to limit hunting to those persons with a valid state hunting license is worded in such a way as not to allow handgun carry in LBL. Since we can't change that general order (federal not state) then we either must except not being able to carry in LBL or must pass yet another law to make a slight change to the law to change the definition of a hunting license to include HCP holders.

It appears if hb0961 were to become law it would allow the carry of a handgun while bow hunting, just not using the handgun to take game. You'll note it says: a person with a handgun carry permit pursuant to § 39-17-1351 may possess a handgun the entire year It doesn't say anything about except during bow season, or only if you're not hunting with another device, it says you may possess a handgun the entire year... While there is language barring a person from using any handgun to hunt... That means to use in the taking of game, it does not bar possess while hunting with another device designed for taking game. The TWRA does have a lot of power to prohibit a lot of stuff, but none of those regulations may violate state law. The TWRA will need to change their hunting guide to note the changes later this year or next year. Now the guy above who wanted to hunt deer with his handgun while carrying a .22 for small game hunting, that may violate TWRA regulations after this bill becomes law, there maybe a regulation against carrying a rimfire rifle while taking large game such as a deer. But carrying a centerfire handgun for protection while hunting small game will be legal when this bill becomes law.

I don't think House Amendment #2 was approved... would have been nice... Also note at least at LBL there appears to be a General Order which seems to prohibit HCP carry... I've got a phone call into Cherokee NF to see if they have any regulations that would prohibit carry.

I'm sorry but that is just not correct... TWRA may only make regulations which do not violate state law. If HB0961 becomes law, then it states the following: That would override any TWRA regulation prohibiting HCP holders from carrying on state owned WMAs... The question becomes if there is a way to get around the current general order that prohibits carry in LBL by changing state law, and if there are any such federal regulations for Cherokee NF which would limit HCP carry. Once HB0961 becomes law all the other WMAs will be free to carry in, unless there is something I'm missing in the proposed law.

That would seem to be the case... You can make a much better argument that working in a smoke filled restaurant is a greater health risk than people around you carrying guns... Yet if you brought a suit it would have to be against your own employer and likely the case would be thrown out as you choose to work there, you can always get a job where people don't smoke or don't carry guns... This just won't fly imho.

I was mentioning both LBL and Cherokee because those are the 2 large Forest Service managed sites in the state (not sure if we have any others). Both are listed as WMAs by the TWRA so both are in similar boats. As for an amendment, no I mean a state bill needs to be amended to fix the problem with the LBL general order, the issue is in the wording in the current general order, which requires you to have a special use permit to carry any firearm on LBL land, in this case the special use permit is a TN hunting license... If we passed an amendment that having a valid HCP was a type of hunting license or in some type of combination with another type of hunting license we are allowed to carry then under current LBL General order it appears we would be allowed to carry. Passing the WMA carry bill will NOT open LBL up to carry unless we add special language to have HCP reconized by the TWRA in some manner. I'm still waiting to hear back from the Forest Service on Cherokee NF to see if they have any regulations barring concealed carry. Now as for areas listed in the parks bill that also happen to be WMAs, I have not found a state law which prohibits carrying handguns on WMAs only a TWRA regulation, if somebody is aware of a state law prohibiting carry in WMAs then please post a link. If there is no law stating otherwise, then state law overrides TWRA regulation. The state law makes no exception for where a state forest is a WMA or not so therefore state law says HCP holders may carry and it's my understanding the TWRA can not block that by regulation.

Passage of the WMA bill will not open carry in the LBL if the general order letter read to me over the phone is truly correct... We're going to need an amendment to the bill to open up LBL, again still waiting on the Cherooke NF LEO to call me back... It's not because it's a WMA that is prohibiting carry at LBL, it's because of a general order with the power of regulation prohibiting the carrying of firearms without a valid permit (TN hunting license)... So passing the WMA bill will not fix that problem.

I'm not sure that is the case.... It would seem that it is a federal national forest and therefore the way the bill is currently worded it's now legal to carry in the NF unless there is a federal regulation/law prohibiting carry. Keep in mind the way the law was worded... Any of the listed locations including National Forests and Recreational areas (Cherokee and LBL for example) are now legal to carry in unless there is federal law prohibiting carry. You'll note no where in the passed law does it say unless they're also a WMA, or anything about WMAs (all language touching on WMAs was removed by Senate Amendment). I just got off the phone with the Law Enforcement office of LBL and there is a Forest Supervisor letter prohibiting carry according to the officer answering the phone, I'm waiting for a call back from the Cheif of Law Enforcement to get a copy of the letter. I've also got a phone call into Cherooke to see if there is any such letter or regulation from them. The officer I spoke with was under the impression the ban on concealed carry was controlled by the TWRA not by Federal regulation or law, but we'll see when he calls me back.

I don't know the area, but I'm curious how they're requiring all businesses to post? Also, I'm curious if the area is still considered a public road with government funding for it's up keep... Going to be really hard to enforce this without violating state law, and/or lawsuits from somebody.

Yes if you look at my other posts I note that WMAs are in another bill, but what does that have to do with National Forests? Which are covered under the now law parks bill?