JayC

I'm sorry but that is incorrect. You have neither RAS or PC to form an investigation of the HCP or the weapon during the process of a traffic stop. In order to claim so you would need some RAS or PC that the permit or the weapon was involved in a crime or about to be involved in a crime, neither of which would be the case in 99.9% of cases. The law allows for you to remove the weapon from a HCP holder only for 'safety' reasons not for investigative reasons, and doing an investigation under the false pretense of safety is likely a violation of state law and/or federal law. I'm not saying you couldn't get away with it, but if you stopped the wrong HCP holder it will probably cause a huge hassle very quickly. Also keep in mind that in all likelihood if a permit holder doesn't tell you up front they have a permit or are armed, you won't know about it until the drivers license is run, then you're going to have a hard time explaining why you needed to disarm the person for your safety instead of just handing them the ticket and releasing them from the scene.

I agree give false information very well maybe a criminal violation... Avoiding the question or just not answering it isn't. You're under no duty to answer any questions, but if you do it must be truthfully. My point is, we're only required to provide the permit, everything else is because we're the good guys and are trying to help - Officers should remember that.

There is a case on point... Just settled this year with the two dads, one pulling a knife and the other placing his holstered handgun on the dash of his vehicle scaring away the knife holding father. The HCP holder was charged and convicted because he handled his firearm while on school property, if he had pulled the handgun from the holster he would have not have been guilty of any offense under TN law according the the judges ruling, but because he handled the firearm but did not use it in self defense he was in violation of the law. This case is exactly on point because the HCP holder was on school property to watch his son during a sporting event, and left his firearm in his car. The judges ruling clearly stated that his only violation was for handling the gun on school property while not using it for self defense. He was not charged for having it in his vehicle and not handling it. Fall guy is right, you are allowed to leave you handgun in your vehicle as long as it's not 'handled' while on the school property.

I suspect before this time next year opt out will be gone completely. We're already hearing rumbling from legislators that they may just do away with local opt out. And hopefully while we're at it, we can get them to take away 1359 opt out for local government buildings.

I am not an attorney, I work in the expert witness, litigation support, and government compliance field (computers) and therefore have to deal with reading laws and government requirements on a daily basis. I'm just a layperson like just about everybody else on this forum and who spends a little too much time reading title 39 of the TCA I'd be happy to look at the resolution next week (I'm going up to Fort Drum, NY this weekend for some training this weekend). I'll PM you my fax number when I get back.

The violation is described in state law, and state law allows them to post so I'd say yes it's a legal sign.

The way the current HCP law is written it requires you to carry the permit at all times when carrying a weapon, and present it on request to a police officer. I agree what you describe *should* be the way it is, but as the law is currently written that is not the case.

I'm not sure that is right... The law says you have to show the officer your permit, and allow the officer to disarm you, it does not say you must disclose if you have a weapon or not, or where the weapons are located on your person or in the vehicle. Fallguy can correct me if I missed a statue that requires you to disclose ahy of this information, but as a HCP holder you're only extra duty is to provide your permit on request.

IMHO the better way to handle this is to vote out the elected folks who voted for closing the parks in anyway shape or form. We'll get all the parks completely open and probably most county/city property in the next legislative session. Just remember all these "pro-2A" politicians voting against the rights of law abiding citizens to carry when it comes time to re-elect them.

Again without seeing the wording, it appears to be in violation of state law, and therefore the entire park would be open for carry.

Without seeing the exact wording this is a guess... but it sounds as if this resolution would be illegal under state law. They must open the entire park or close the entire park, they can not open/close certain parts of said park.

I'm not sure that is correct... Can you provide a cite? The long gun in your vehicle law doesn't seem to be limited in where you can carry with it. Now outside the vehicle I would agree long guns are prohibited.

The state does not make them available, if they do that would be a HUGE problem and we would want to report that. They likely got the no carry signs from the local or state restaurant association.

He could, but the AG letter on the subject would probably give you a basis for not having intent to violate the law. While it's not been tested in court, it is the best advice the chief law enforcement officer on TN has to say on the subject. And it clearly states what is 'substantially similar' and what isn't.

Agreed +10000 that is the fix we need.

You won't hear me disagree that passing a law that states if you can legally own it you can legally carry it anywhere. But, I seriously doubt we can get that passed in this state anytime soon.

Carrying of a firearm with the intent to go armed is illegal in all cases in TN, BUT state law allows a number of 'defenses' to said carry, one being for hunting, another being on your property or business, and a third example being the HCP. All of these defenses have their own set of requirements.... So, is it illegal, technically YES, but you have a legal defense to the violation if you're on your property. A number of us comment a lot that instead of these carry being defenses, they should be exceptions to the violation. Which would mean that the burden would be placed on the state not on us to prove said defense. (To a police officer or judge)

Again, I agree it's a personal choice to give your money to a business that has improperly posted. I won't tell anybody not to, since it is still legal to carry those establishments. Just like I don't try and tell people how they should carry (OC vs CC). But, do us all a favor and don't try to rationalize how if they really were anti-2A or anti-HCP they would have properly posted, and because they haven't somehow they're on our side. Just be true to reality, if they posted improperly they're anti-2A anti-HCP, and you just don't care enough to do business elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong that sometimes I choose to carry concealed instead of open because it's just easier for me (don't have to answer stupid questions from family members). Again, this isn't pointed at anybody but I've seen a number of people who appear to seriously think that improper postings are some clever support the business owner is giving HCP holders while keeping their sheeple customers happy, which is just a load of **** imho.

I disagree Fallguy, we have to carry and provide a HCP on request... While everybody else just has to prove in anyway they are on their own property... While a non-permit holder could show a drivers license, or just make the statement that this is their house... If you have a permit you must provide it upon request even if a HCP is not required for carry in that location. It's not a HUGE deal, but the law is poorly worded... and I agree, instead of having both home/business carry and HCP carry listed as defenses we should work to have them made exceptions to the law. And that is the right way to get this changed imho.

Well depending on the handgun you're carrying while hunting on your own land, yes you would be required to have your HCP with you and present it if requested. Yes, the way the current law is worded, it's a silly loophole, and we should work to remove it in the next session, since it places a burden on HCP holders which is not placed on everybody else exercising the same right under the law.

You CLEARLY don't know many people in the restaurant business... Chain restaurants sometimes have somebody on staff to focus on legal requirements... but small businesses which are family owned, generally have no clue about which signs are and aren't required or whether they have to be a special size or what wording is on them. I can tell you from personal experience, unless some inspector comes by and complains most businesses don't have a clue what is or isn't required. If your local restaurant is posted, it means 9 times out of 10 (or more often) they don't want you in there with a gun and they just don't even know to check the law to see if the sign they posted is legal or not. This whole it's business owners being smart, keep the sheeple happy but still allow gun owners to carry is a fairy tale we are telling ourselves... The facts are it's just not the case the vast majority of the time, the business owner thinks the gun and slash sign will prevent everybody from carrying, that is their intent. Look at it this way, think of how many HCP holders don't even know the law that well? How many times do we hear an instructor for a HCP giving out bad information? And these people paid to sit through 4-6 hours or trainings (or in the case of instructors are being paid for 4-6 hours of training) on hand gun laws in TN, and then are TESTED on the material that was covered. I'd bet more than 50% of HCP holders could not tell a legally enforceable sign from a sign which isn't... I'd bet 25% of HCP instructors couldn't tell the difference.... And somehow you think a business owner who has little to no interest in HCP bothers to do enough research to come up with a scheme to make his sheeple customers happy but still allow carry in his business? Give me a break... If you really believe that is why most of these businesses are improperly posted, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you cheap. Now, I'm not saying don't use their ignorance to your advantage and carry in those locations since it's still legal... I'm just saying don't kid yourself that they want you or any other HCP holder carrying a gun in their business and this is their clever way to allow you to do it.

While that maybe the intent of the officer... It can be accomplished in several other ways. I'll note that for a non-HCP holder they're not required to 'prove' their residence. I'm all for having to provide the HCP upon request when we're otherwise not allowed to carry under the law. But we shouldn't have any more requirements in our homes and businesses than any other regular citizen.

As the law is currently written you do not need a permit on your property or your business to carry openly or concealed. If you do have a permit, you're required to produce it for a LEO even if you're on your home property under the current law. It's a silly loophole which hopefully will get corrected next session.

The sign says illegal possession... Which it is still illegal to possess a firearm in both places if you do NOT have a HCP.

The sign IS still a requirement under the law, it says basically states that ILLEGAL possession of a firearm is a violation of TN law. All restaurants selling liquor should have that sign somewhere in the restaurant. It does not impact HCP holders at all.