Cruel Hand Luke

Tower, I was a little ambiguous with my post on the doubting it would change the manual of arms. I didn't mean that to sound like thought I wouldn't learn anything. On the contrary I'm all fired up about the "impact weapon/hand to hand" stuff. I meant I have a pretty refined and robust set of AK operating skills for loading ,unloading , reloading and firing the weapon. I'm definitely not one of those who says "AKs suck because they are not ergonomic". I have a well refined way of running it that eliminates all that drama. As far as making it operate I'm pretty comfortable. I am not sure how much of that will change, but a more refined skillset of using it as an impact weapon is definitely something I'm looking forward to.

Tower, the point is not learning soviet military doctrine. No one doubts the US army would prevail against a 14th century Samurai army either,but it would be interesting to see a real samurai demonstrate their manual of arms for use of the katana, bow and spear and empty hands. And armies fighting each other has virtually nothing to do with how the individual weapon system is run or with how I would be employing said system as a private citizen. The point of interest is to work the AK system with someone who has actually used it in battle , while playing for the the team that invented it, and get their take on how to run it. While it is not going to likely change my own AK manual of arms, it will be interesting to see how they do it, taught by someone who has done it for them. And seeing Sonny's take on using the AK as an impact weapon/blunt trauma instrument is also something that most folks don't get to see everyday. I'm not trying to be a jackass, but whether we would beat the Russians in a combined arms conflict (which is what we do better than ANYONE else's military) really has nothing to do with getting a better idea of how their special units run their indigenous equipment.It would be similar to a Russian citizen getting a chance to take an AR class from a Green Beret or a SEAL. And Mars, I got the idea that the fire from behind was provided by Gabe ,Sonny and Gomez -not other students. I think it was just ambiguously worded. And all the "muzzle sweeping"in the movement drill was done with empty guns.That was the point of the "checking to make sure they were unloaded" part. It is just like when we work disarm drills with triple checked empty live guns that are taped shut to eliminate the possibility of them being cycled and loaded. And Urse, we'll be glad to have you!

Hey Mars, I just now saw your question in the opening line of post #1. I'm actually hosting this class. I lobbied hard to get a Kalashnikov Gunfighting class here at my place, and you don't get to take an AK class from a real live Russian Spetsnaz operator every day. There are still some spots available. The class he taught with Gabe in Arizona sold out last year , and the one in Houston in May did too. This will be the first one he has done in the south east so if AK is of interest and especially FIGHTING with an AK (even if it is using it as an impact weapon) then this is the class. I'm psyched.

Whether folks agree with Colt's various political posturings , their guns tend to work at a more reliable rate than others. Not just from what I have seen, but from what I hear from other trainers too. And really the upper receiver and barrel is the key. If it is put together well (by someone who knows what they are doing) with milspec parts (barrel/upper/bolt and carrier) it probably doesn't matter whose name is stamped on your lower receiver. I have an Olympic lower paired with a Colt 6721 upper and it runs 100%- Just as well as the Colt lower with the Colt 6721 upper. If at all possible I'd look for Colt upper/barrel assemblies to build ARs with. BUt YMMV. I'm just speaking from MY experience. Others may differ.

That could be said of almost anything!

Hmmm.....isn't that much what I was saying in my earlier post with.... "(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. The LAWFUL PURPOSE would be the legal carry of your firearm within the parameters of the state law and under the issuing authority of the State of Tennessee. Lawful carry of a firearm with a valid permit is a lawful purpose........ " Someone said federal law trumps state law. That is NOT the issue. The two are NOT in conflict here.The issue is whether my LAWFUL carry is a LAWFUL purpose. If carrying a pistol with a permit is lawful, then carrying it with a permit is lawful under this statute. This statute was no doubt written before permits were widely available so its meaning is vague NOW THAT THEY ARE WIDELY ISSUED. But carrying ILLEGALLY- with NO PERMIT- would NOT be a LAWFUL PURPOSE. So Mars, if LEGALLY carrying a pistol with a STATE ISSUED PERMIT falls under the "Lawful Purposes" loophole,(as the state issued permit is certainly LAWFUL) then it is legal to carry a gun in the post office. So we are in agreement?

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. The LAWFUL PURPOSE would be the legal carry of your firearm within the parameters of the state law and under the issuing authority of the State of Tennessee. Lawful carry of a firearm with a valid permit is a lawful purpose........

We kick off this party about 9AM eastern time. We have to sign waivers and fill out name tags so if you are a minute or two (or 10) late it isn't the end of the world.

I shoot how I need to when I need to. Project the gun at the target,see what you NEED to see and don't waste time looking for "perfect". I don't like the word "stance" - it implies standing still. Standing still when folks are trying to hurt you doesn't have much of a future.

Glad to have you on board. I think you'll enjoy it and more importantly learn some useful stuff.

You do not hear about drunken gunfights in bars in Pennsylvania. It is LEGAL to carry in bars there. You can even DRINK and carry there. But the people that legally carry are not the ones who start trouble. In fact at the NTI (held in Harrisburg PA) I think EVERYONE in the bar in the hotel was armed. No one got shot. No one got into an altercation.Everyone kept 'em concealed (they all look similar-there is no reason for you to see mine or me to see yours) and everyone went about their business. The way it SHOULD BE. Flat out, Jimmy Naifeh is why this keeps getting killed. Get rid of him and more pro gun stuff MIGHT see the light of day. As long as he controls the committee that it has to get through to get voted on.....forget about it. Problem is he keeps getting elected. No matter how many calls or emails I send I can't change that. Voters in his district will have to.

The statute is vague. A lot of them are. That leaves room for discretion on the part of the officer, DA, Judge, etc. A friend who is local PD SWAT and works on the "Beer Board" -the folks who cite or shut down bars for violations - says that it really is not clear even to THEM. They read it to mean as long as the owner vouches for you as being his "agent" then you should be good to go. Just don't be stupid about it. Concealed means CONCEALED. BUT....it is just going to take one drunk dumbass shooting someone accidentally(or negligently!) to get this statute rewritten so that you DO have to have a security guard license to carry and maybe even to work UNARMED security. As of right now ANYONE can work security for a bar. No certification, no real qualifications, no oversight of any kind. And I used to be a bouncer. I know how this works. But VERY few bouncers I've ever met are allowed to carry guns....at least officially... WAY too big a liability downside to it. Also too big a weapon retention nightmare if you have to go hands on with a group of rowdies in the middle of a bar full of people with a band playing so forth and so on. Like I said, I've got a little experience here...... Besides inside a club, gunplay would likely start a stampede and hurt even more folks. That is why concert security is almost never armed. I'm NOT talking about the Police that work big shows as an extra job, but the actual concert security staff. They gang tackle people, not shoot them. Bar bouncers typically use an impact weapon or bare hands. And they usually don't work alone. They have backup. When it is 5 or 6 on one they generally decide to let you escort them outside instead of taking their chances. But there's always an exception. But we still don't shoot them......we restrain them and eject them and call the cops if we need to.

There are still spots available in this class!

Where is the dirt and the mud? It's not a real test unless the guns are DIRTY. Even a Lorcin should work if it is not dropped in a puddle.... I want to hear how well some of these "innovative" pistols work when they are filthy. Seriously guys, carry what you want to. If something came along demonstrably better then I'd use it. But there isn't. And for me, I know how to keep my finger off the trigger until I want it to go BANG, I know how to holster without looking and not shoot myself in the ass, I know how to read the manual and not shoot lead in it, I don't reload, and mine is a 9mm so it is probably the least problem prone of any caliber of Glock pistol. I scored 100% on the range qualification with that gun at the Rangemaster Instructor School-which FEW people have done. I have scored 100% all 4 times I have shot the FBI qual course with that gun(and not many agents can say they have EVER scored 100%-in fact they get their name on a plaque at Quantico when they do) , and I've won more matches with it than I can remember. I don't lose any sleep over whether my gun will work, put bullets where they need to go, or whether it will spontaneously explode.....But if those things concern you guys, by all means buy something else...no one is holding a gun to your head making you buy a Glock.

I agree. People that can't pay attention when they reload and can't keep their fingers off the trigger when they are holstering shouldn't buy them......or anything else.

Urse is on it. The issues are these.... 1. The 40SW high operating pressure. It is 30,000PSI + , a far cry from the .45 auto 21,000 PSI. 2. Because of this pressure the unsupported chamber CAN be an issue with old brass. While you can load .45 auto numerous times till it finally cracks, 40SW is a different critter. 3. There was a much publicized batch of Federal ammo about 12 years ago that had substandard brass that led to KBs. 4. The other issue is bullet set back with 180 grain ammo. The 180 grain bullets are long. If you chamber them 20 times before you shoot them you are driving the bullet deeper into the case than it is safe to operate at.It is more dangerous with the 180, but it is an issue with any weight. If your chambered round is obviously shorter than the rest in the mag, throw it away, don't SHOOT it! Again, while it is not a problem with the slower lower pressure stuff, 40SW pressures get ridiculously high when the bullet is sitting farther down in the case than it should be seated. This is why CCI dropped the Blazer 357sig loading. Bullet setback.And the 357 operating at 40,000 PSI is even more bad news with bullet setback. You can't crimp aluminum cases tight enough to prevent it.So CCI dropped the Blazer 357sig. 5. Lead bullets. Polygon rifling gets a better gas seal(why they shoot the same loads FASTER than standard rifling). So it operates under more pressure to begin with. Now when the barrel becomes less than a full .40 diameter from the lead build up, all that pressure has to go somewhere and it takes the path of least resistance. 6. AND finally reloaders not paying attention. I know a guy who had a KB with a G22. He double charged a round. BOOOM! While it may not be a big deal to double charge a low pressure round shot in a steel frame gun , it IS a big deal when you double charge something that operates at 30,000+ PSI in a polymer frame gun. Often the KBs are a result of MORE than one of the above. Any ONE can cause it, but more than one is really bad. So my advice to .40 cal polymer frame gun shooters is to READ THE MANUAL. DON'T USE RELOADS. DON'T CHAMBER THE SAME ROUND MORE THAN 2 OR 3 TIMES BEFORE YOU SHOOT IT. DON'T SHOOT LEAD. Incidentally while KBs have happened, they are RARE. I know A LOT of shooters. I only know of ONE KB from someone that is a first hand story. So lets keep it in perspective.

If your gun CAN'T survive a 3 foot drop onto pavement your gun's already screwed up. These things are built to survive military combat. I guess no one has EVER been in a fight to detain a suspect and dropped a pistol on a parking lot before? I guess no one has ever been shot and dropped their pistol, picked it up and fought back? So maybe dropping it on pavement is not out of the realm of possibility? Question what you want about the condition of my pistol. Ichiro Nagata is not going to show up at my house to do a glossy pictorial for GUNS magazine.And I'm OK with that. My carry gun is there to protect life, not turn heads. My carry guns are well used, well worn and work well.I've carried these same pistols for several years 360+ days a year, shot them in dirt, mud, heat, cold,I've hit peoople with them and wrestled over them in disarm classes, dry fired them THOUSANDS of times, and won more than my share of matches with 'em. And I'm a certified armorer so I can work on 'em if I need to. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over my pistols' condition. If your pistol can't be dropped without breaking it , is that REALLY the gun you want to be defending your life with? But until you put it in that context of real world usage you will probably continue to coddle them and think of them as trinkets instead of tools.

Interesting. I just view it as a tool. The prettier it is the less likely one is to actually use it. You know, fear of getting it scratched or something. I prefer robust simple stuff that works and I wouldn't hesitate to use to beat someone down with if I had to.... something I'm not terrified to drop on pavement. I guess I just look at it differently than some. In my circles we view a carry gun as a life preserver not a museum piece. If rappers started carrying 1911s would you guys hate them? And on the 45GAP...while I don't own one nor will I ,the state police of NY,PA,GA,(and soon SC) have all gone to it. Again I don't see why anyone cares. No one is making anyone buy one. And frankly if the bullet diameter is the same as .45 auto and the velocity is the same as .45 auto AND it is in a frame that more people can wrap their hand around and control better...what is the problem?

Some interesting comments so far. Why the Glock hate? Just curious. A LOT of bad dudes carry glocks BY CHOICE. As far as the 21SF goes, IF it fit my hand (and I haven't handled one yet) it MIGHT be interesting. I doubt it will do anything my carry gun doesn't already do. There just really isn't THAT much difference between performance of the different service calibers when using IWBA compliant ammo to go to a gun that doesn't fit my hand as well. But the military was looking for a new.45 and that is where this came from. Of course that project got killed........ Innovation. Guys there is nothing that you can reasonably do with the new guns that can't be done with a 1918 vintage 1911, 1940 vintage P35 Hi Power or any number of other "technologically challenged" pistols. It is the operator not the tool. If you work the gun will, no matter what it is. If you don't , it won't, no matter the gun. That won't sell many gun magazines,or new pistols but it is true. Now, can you make a certain gun fit you better with removable backstraps? Sure. But I'm not stuck with having to carry any certain pistol so I can pick and choose what fits ME. And if my gun I presently carry works...why would I want to change? To be cool? In the circles I travel in we look for ability and proficiency, not who is carrying what. And as far as HK goes...at least Glock doesn't act like they don't want civilians to buy their guns. Don't try to argue this , I work in the industry. I know what I'm talking about. I have never understood why there HAS to be something new just for the sake of there being something new. My 9 year old Glock 34 puts rounds where I want them when I want them there. It goes bang every time I ask it to and it holds a lot of ammo. The rest is up to me. I wouldn't be any better armed with an HK (which frankly don't sit low enough in the hand for me) or a Sig (don't like the grip angle), or a Kimber whatever(which I have yet to see more than a handful that don't have some kind of issues), or an M&P. And neither would anyone else. I find it amazing how many folks have "innovative" pistols never shoot them, are afraid to get any holster wear on them or Heaven forbid, drop it in the dirt. It is a freakin' tool. Unless you are willing to get out and train with it , get some wear on it, get it dirty, and abuse it a little it is just an expensive nick nack. Might as well be a glass unicorn. So while you guys might call me a "Glockie" or whatever, that's cool. I don't take it personally. My gun works and it is paid for. Frankly I don't like HK pistols. They just don't feel "right" to me. I can have ANY thing I want. I carry a G34. And it isn't because I don't know any better, it is because in reality I don't NEED nor would I really benefit any from one of those more "innovative" designs. On weapon mounted lights....I don't think they are all that useful to civilians on the street and only marginally more useful to them in the home.On the street it just is rarely ever dark enough to NEED a light (for a civilian in a shooting situation) and we don't go into structures to look for suspects. And in the home you don't need to be "building clearing" anyways. Hole up in the safe room and repel borders if they try to enter. Building clearing with just one person is suicidal. Sorry it is. Try it sometime against a live opponent in Force on Force. The one thing I can say is you CAN put pressure on a wound and illuminate an area AND cover it all at the same time with a weapon mounted light. That is not so easy with a hand held. Remember neither YOU nor your family are bullet proof and the bad guy may not be the only one to get shot....hope you guys have a tourniquet or an H bandage to go along with your "innovative" pistols. If not, Yeager's store sells 'em.

Again, not INTENDING to be a jackass, but.... 1. "Reciprocity changes over time "- Yes it gets better. In the last 10 years no other state has canceled reciprocity with TN, only added it. Our permit is honored in more states now than EVER. 2.Mississippi does and has since at least 1997. And Alabama has honored our permit since the same time. Didn't have true reciprocity in 1997, but they honored ours. 3. "I don't think the class covers reciprocity in all 50 states, so it is a legitimate question."- Your class SHOULD have covered that . I have a different perspective on this because I teach these classes.The state is vague on what you HAVE to cover, but I feel it is our duty to cover this stuff. And it is not like the instructors can't get a list of states. So there is no reason they CAN'T cover it. In our classes we cover which states you can carry in . We also carry the "Legally Armed " books that compiles all this stuff pretty much yearly. They are like $12. EVERYONE should have one. But just because you take ONE class does not mean you should not seek further training. On the same note just because you took the CCW class does not mean you should never again check to see about any law changes. And yes if you got your permit a LONG time ago then that info would not have been covered. I guess I was assuming you had gotten your permit in the last 10 years. For those of you who got permits before 1999, you could still be sued back then for damages inflicted while intervening in behalf of a 3rd party. Since then the law changed and now you have immunity from civil suit from the perpetrator (and his family) if he is injured or killed in the commission of a violent felony. THAT is stuff that should be covered too........ AGAIN, I wasn't making any kind of judgment against the original poster. I was merely saying that where your permit is honored SHOULD be covered in class. That is no indictment against the poster. It is an indictment against whoever taught the class......... Like I said I have a different perspective on this than some.

Not being a jackass here, but they REALLY should have covered that in your permit class.

Still time to get in on this one!

Yeah, I have taught CCW classes with Ex SF guys and I have taught 21 year old women who had to borrow a gun because they did not yet own one of their own. A VERY wide discrepency in experience, mindset and skill between these groups. BUT I have to structure the class so that each has a thorough understanding of what reality holds on the street. So I have to give extra attention to the newbies in shooting technique and still make sure everyone has a thorough understanding of legal issues and dynamics of interpersonal conflict issues. It really is a tightrope to walk for those of us that strive to give them MORE than their money's worth in class. And remember I will be walking the streets at the same time as some of these same people I have trained. I not only have responsibility to the public at large to make sure these folks have a clue, but also to me and my family. So I definitely take this seriously! So even though the standards are minimal, I don't teach it directed at minimal competence. While that is acceptable to the state it is not acceptable to me. I have a duty to the students and to society to make sure these folks are better than MINIMALLY trained.

Let me add something here to clarify what I was saying earlier and what others have echoed. I said most would PROBABLY have a hard time in court having shot someone that far away. In reality I know of 2 shootings that took place at that distance HERE IN TENNESSEE. Both were good shootings and both were necessary to save the shooter in one case and the shooter's child in the other case. So please do not quote me as saying you will "NEVER" shoot that distance. But it is statisticly RARE. My issue with using that distance in a CCW class is that frankly you just do not have the time in 4 hours of range work to ingrain in a newby the trigger control to make those hits regularly. A guy who has never shot before who shows up with a SW 642 (DAO revolver) is NOT going to do well at 25 yards. I also do not want to give someone the idea that they are going to LIKELY be shooting at that distance. The issue is more a "you are responsable for everything that leaves yuor muzzle" than anything else. If we ENCOURAGE guys (and gals) who are NOT going to get any further training (and we KNOW most don't) to shoot at that distance then we are doing a disservice to everyone else who might be down range when Joe Citizen hauls out his snubby and starts firing away at the BGs from across the parking lot when he sees a little old lady getting robbed. Is there a time and place for teaching long distance pistol shooting? ABSOLUTELY, but that is just (IMHO) not the CCW class. I prefer to spend more time in the limited time I have them in class giving them what to look for in pre fight cues, giving them a better understanding of distance issues such as how close is too close to let someone approach before you tell them to stop and how quickly distance can be covered and working on the close distance intervals where the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of fights really occur. I teach them how to manipulate the trigger for precise shooting, but tell them that is a skill they will have to hone on their own at home. I just wanted to clear this up before people point to me to say that I say you don't need to learn to shoot well at distance. You need to learn to shoot well PERIOD. At ALL distances.Especially if you are going to carry a pistol. But the CCW class just is not long enough to do that. Actually the more likely use of precision shooting would be at a close target that is obscured by cover or by someone who does NOT need to be shot. Think in terms of in and around cars (lots of robberies happen in parking lots!) or think in terms of helping a 3rd person but the victim is obscuring your view of the BG. If someone is obscured by a vehicle (especially if they are IN the vehicle) it is pretty similar to shooting a full size target far away. Same thing with a partial target that is blocked by a non combatant. So as long as we present it in real world context I don't have a problem, but I DO think that it is a skill that needs to be worked on MUCH more than the 4 hours of range work they get in the CCW class. I hope this clears up my stance on this.....

From what I understand the lack of a mandated # of shots at mandated distances is due to the different facilities between schools. Where I teach we shoot out to 17 yards because that is as far as our indoor range goes. So if it were MANDATED 25 yards then we couldn't be a certified school. Also it is frankly going to be rather difficult for the average Joe to articulate why he was shooting at someone that far away.