Cruel Hand Luke

Amen.

Knowing what I know I'd say that's an overly broad generalization not at all relevant to my specific situation, locale, or the local DA. (but then again that may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on it-the old lack of voice inflection in internet forums thing.......) That is the wonderful thing about the legal climate here. It really doesn't matter WHAT you shoot them with as long as they NEEDED to be shot. If lethal force is required (justifiable) the delivery vehicle is pretty much irrelevant. This isn't Illinois, Cali or Mass. It's still a "free" part of the world!

Yep. They do. But honestly that doesn't apply here. You might as well be comparing apples and diesel fuel. In MY situation-civillian USA, if I fire SEVERAL HUNDRED ROUNDS it will be on CNN and I will be in the encyclopedia .Besides, I don't carry that much ammo with me........ So that hot handguard issue is just not really a concern to me. Context. Within the REALISTIC operational context of my "real world" that is a non issue. Besides I'll take a hot handguard as a trade off for the ability to shoot through cover more efficiently. You, in all liklelihood look at this through YOUR "real world" operational context. As you should. What works for cops in Franklin Tn (just pulling that out of the air) is NOT AT ALL relevant to what works clearing cave complexes in eastern Afghanistan or hunting rebels in the jungles of the Phillipines or civilian self defense or natural disaster/shtf scenarios. What Delta guys do room entry with is as relevant to my life as what aliens use for toilet paper. Not relevant at all.

The robustness I refer to is the fact that you CAN use it as a club and not worry about breaking it. You CAN drop it on concrete and not worry about it going Tango Uniform. You CAN do bayonet drills without breaking it....I know someone who broke 2 M16A4s doing bayonet drills. I'm all for precision....when it is needed. In civillian SD it just really is not often that necessary to be able to shoot 1" 100 yard groups. And we ALL know this. But for ME,my situation,and my skill, I'm more worried about it going bang than I am about me being able to direct the rounds to the target. Aks are PLENTY accurate enough for me. The less I have to worry with "what if it doesn't work" the more I can concentrate on what I'm doing. I can have anything I want (or can afford). I'm not having to deal with something someone else issued to me. In a " social" gun I don't want something that I have to EVER worry about whether it will go bang when I want it to. But I'm just practical like that.... And guys, there is no RIGHTor WRONG here. If guys like M16s... fine. I like 'em too. If guys like M14s...fine. I do too. If you like FALs cool. I too like them. If you like MP5....great. I like 'em too. But honestly my UZI will do 95% of what an MP5 will do and do it when it is much dirtier AND...... the UZI is much easier to clean to boot! And I'd much rather clean an AK than an M16.... The weapon is not nearly as important as the mindset and skill of the operator. Hell, that is the same with anything-golf, tennis, auto racing. So a guy who has internalized his gun handling and marksmanship so that that stuff runs on a subconscous level so he can concentrate on winning the fight not running his gear is much better armed with a lever gun(or a sharp stick!) than most folks are with an HK416. And we all SHOULD know that. I know you do Mars.

No I would not demand a ticket. But I also would not "EXPECT" to get out of it either. Stories? I was not referring to any website. I was referring to when people out in the public hear about cops avoiding tickets for speeding or avoiding parking tickets or whatever. It DOES happen. I know. My 2 best friends are cops. I majored in criminal justice in college. I know and have been around my fair share of cops and their families. Certain things occasionally get "fixed" or over looked BECAUSE cops look out for each other. But that is NOT unique to the LE profession though......I'm sure gas station attendants, garbage men and circus performers look out for each other too.....The issue though is that with cops it undermines public trust.The public percieves this as " If little stuff gets swept under the rug then does big stuff? I KNEW it! All cops are dirty!" And THAT perception becomes a real problem. And some folks ARE definetly resentful of authority. In fact I really wondered whether the guy in the original post suffered from that affliction. I still have a hard time imagining that the original post situation was ALL the cop's fault. Almost always those situations are exacerbated by a smart ass who "knows his rights". (THAT DOES NOT MEAN I THINK YOU SHOULD NOT ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS. IT MEANS DON'T BE A SMART ASS ABOUT IT!)

And that, combined with the robust design and lack of need for intensive maintenance is why I like them. In other terms. I agree that the 1911, PROPERLY tuned, and set up is probably the finest combat pistol out there. The problem is that they require more maintenance and greater "start up expense" to get them right or to build them right from the ground up. The design just does not lend itself to modern production methods. It NEEDS to be hand fitted.But properly set up it is finer than anything else out there...IMHO. On the other hand the glock requires virtually no maintenance, works straight out of the box and will shoot as well as as the shooter in REALISTIC interpersonal conflict distance where pistols are likely to be used as a primary weapon. I'll take robust and "good enough" over "the best" albeit finicky every time. But YMMV.

The issue though is the percieved inequality. Some pigs are more eqaul than others I guess. (NO that is not a cop joke....read the book). When citizens feel cops see themselves as above the law then there are problems. This is just simple human nature. We can't have it both ways. You can't appear to be letting other cops break the law and expect the general public to respect the law...after all, if the cops don't respect it, why should the citizenry at large? If you have an "us vs. them" mentality then you will get an "us vs them" reaction from the public.You can't logically complain about citizens not respecting cops if cops act in a way that breeds disrespect from the average citizen. Just like a citizen can't complain for being treated like a criminal if he acts like a jackass to the cop. If cops (or anyone) APPEAR to be taking advantage of their position then they will not be respected and will be reacted to with contempt. If someone appears to be polite and courteous he will usually be reacted to the same -at least by decent citizens. The criminals will still lie to you and try to kill you, but that is just what they do anyways. So if you let your buddies off for speeding but not the average joe then the average joe will become resentful to you. On the other hand apparently if you write tickets for EVERYONE -including cops and their mothers, then the cops will be resentful toward you. A no win situation I guess......

I agree. For certain applications there are better systems.I like my M4. I like my Colt Commando. I like my M1A Scout rifle. I also like my AK. They all do different stuff well. But for a robust system with rugged reliability -that is NOT intensely maintenance dependant-with a cartridge that will shoot through stuff and still do something after it gets through stuff, and in a somewhat lightweight package with a healthy mag capacity, that is affordable and affordable to practice with enough to "own" anything you can see out to 150-200 yards (and especially at 50 and less where things REALLY happen in civilian world) then the AK is pretty hard to beat. But that is just IMHO:D.

VIVA LAS VEGAS!!!

Hard to argue with a website ostensibly devoted to "horror stories" about cops getting tickets from other cops. How tragic.... BUT....We don't make the situation any better when we (as armed citizens) get confrontational when we encounter police. The point I was making earlier about OC was that IN MY EXPERIENCE most who open carry seem to have an "It's my right and you can't do anything about it" chip on their shoulder. ***** AND AGAIN...If that does not apply to those reading this then this is not directed at those reading.***** If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone at a gunshow or a gunshop or on the phone at work go on and on about how they would "put the cop in their place" and how the" cops work for them " and how "no jack booted thug would disarm them", I'd have A LOT more dollars than I have now.... These guys who open carry to draw attention and then argue with the cop DO NOT help us. Be respectful, be courteous and then call Internal Affairs and file a complaint if that is warranted or call an attorney. Don't tell the guy he doesn't know what he is talking about and exacerbate the situation....But in MY EXPERIENCE if no one sees it to begin with there is no issue to be dealt with. I carry 365 days a year. I carry to protect my family, me, loved ones and MAYBE depending on circumstances third parties who are in imminent danger. I don't carry to make a political statement. I don't carry to "be cool". I don't carry to make people think I'm a bad ass. In fact I don't want ANYONE to even give me a second look. When I am out in public I look like just your average big guy (6' 240) who probably used to wrestle or play football and who probably still lifts weights.I'm usually dressed kinda preppy (untucked polo shirt and jeans or cargo shorts) no "insured by Smith and Wesson" or "Glock Perfection" clothing. No visible gun. No visible spare mag. No visible second gun. No visible knife. No visible Fox labs pepper spray. No visible blow out kit. All that stuff is covered up and I look like everyone else. And you know something? Cops don't come single me out to talk to. I've been pulled over 5 times ever. Only 2 of those asked if I had a gun in the car. I just don't fit the profile, I'm courteous and I don't start arguments. I know my lawyer will do a lot more damage than my arguing with the officer will. It is knowing WHEN and HOW to get your point across. So back to our original post in this thread. What do you HONESTLY think the bystanders who saw this thought? Did they think "Hmm that cop is a dumbass and the guy is right" or did they think "what is that guy's problem with the gun on his hip. I hope he's not a danger to us. I hope the cop gets this under control." I'm NOT against the right to open carry. I am against open carry WITH AN ATTITUDE and against open carry without using common sense. And I may be wrong but I have a hard time swallowing the "he forgot to untuck his shirt". I can't remember ever being out in public and NOT knowing whether I was carrying openly or not.........I just pay attention like that....

I took it to mean he is tired of the police officers who think they are above the law. But that is just my guess. I may be COMPLETELY wrong. Just my guess with the limited amount of info posted.

Sorry to hear that. Check your PM.

No probably not more dognappings, but the sign gives intel and prior warning that otherwise the BGs would not so easily have. A little anti freeze marinated hamburger meat and the dog is no longer a problem. Or a can of mace for Spot. Neither of which would the BG be likely to bring had you not been advertising the fact that he would need them.

Towerclimber, We agree MUCH more than we disagree. I thought the cop should have been suspended for a couple of days. If you are going to enforce the law then you might need to know the law..... And you DO NOT threaten citizens with falsifying probable cause to "keep them in line". That is a disservice to good cops everywhere. And while I do not often carry openly I DO, HAVE and WILL continue to fight for the right to do so if one chooses to carry that way. But from a purely practical standpoint just untucking his shirt so that the gun was covered would likely have kept this from happening......

As I said in the other thread I DO carry open ...just rarely. I just cannot find any advantage to it that is not outweighed by other issues. I'm just practical that way..... But while I don't often do it myself I will defend tooth and nail the right to do so. Make no mistake about that. I'm not against it from anything other than a practical standpoint.

It doesn't have to be "either / or" you can carry concealed sometimes.....

Neither was open carry. By the 1860s and 70s there were laws on the books against open carry in towns pretty much EVERYWHERE. Only in frontier towns was it even remotely acceptable to open carry-unless you were a cop. You cannot get a true view of history by watching western movies. Sure folks open carried out on the range. But in towns they covered 'em up or surrendered 'em or paid a fine and went to jail!

Thanks Tungsten. Apparently if I had put up the rant sign it would have been more palatable. I was not the one who questioned someone's love of liberty or suggested that they would limit 1st 2nd or 4th ammendment rights. That is what set off my rant.But I also qualified in my post that if those stereotypes did not apply to any individuals here, then they should not take it to mean them. It just gets old when people who DO NOT know you question how committed you are to the cause because you don't open carry or hint that you don't gaurd the other liberties just as closely because you don't wear the "I will not be subjugated" badge of a gun openly carried on your hip. From my experience most folks who make that argument don't even know where their local voting precinct is........... If someone wants to open carry ...fine. BUt then again they don't answer to me anyways. Do what you want. Live long and prosper. But please be aware that you WILL be reacted to differently in public by most members of society -unless you live in a rural area. But deep down (JUST MY OPINION) I think they know that and like it on some level. And again if that does NOT apply to you then there is no reason to get upset. Just posting my HONEST opinion that was not formulated overnight. I have carried with a permit for 10 years. I have taught for almost that long. I've worked in the shooting industry for 8 years. So I spend most of my time in the company of gun carriers of one stripe or another. And there ARE certain "patterns " or "characteristics" that are noticeable. But one last time. If those do not apply to folks here then .....GREAT! But I can only go by my experience. Have a wonderful day!

For those who OC just for the sake of comfort, OK, I can maybe get on board with that. I think it gives up in the element of surprise more than it gains in deterrance, but that is just my opinion. What I have the problem with is (and I have personally talked to way more than my fair share of these guys) when guys say "Well by goodness it's my right and I don't care what other people on the street think". "It's the Constitution and no Jack Booted Thug is gonna stop me" and all that crap that really makes me have to question whether there should be some kind of basic common sense test added to the CCW test.These are the "Look everyone I have a gun and you can't do anything about it because it is my right" crowd.THAT DOES NOT HELP OUR CAUSE. We do not need to be associated with that kind of behavior. These are almost always the guys who hint that you are not really pro gun unless you wear a GOA hat, a "Waco -Never Again" T shirt and carry openly a 6" 44mag and have gun stickers all over your vehicle.Usually these are the same guys who carry a 1911 with the hammer down on an empty chamber in $6 nylon holster with a mag pouch attached to the holster. They tend not to vote, tend to spend a little too much time scanning the tree tops for black helicopters , almost never know who their Senators or Congressman is or how THEY vote,and honestly rarely even carry a gun at all.And yes I'm stereotyping A LITTLE, but I'm a lot closer to truth than not. While GOA is a fine organization and WACO was real American tragedy, that image does NOT help our cause! Again, it is well within my rights to wear a lunch meat suit to the zoo. But climbing in the lion cage while so attired is not the wisest choice I can make. While it is well within your rights to drive 45 miles an hour on the interstate (assuming 45 is the minimum) it does not mean that that is wise to do either. It causes other drivers to react to you differently than if you were just driving somewhere near the speed limit. Carrying openly ESPECIALLY IN AN URBAN AREA causes a different response from people (especially cops) than if they do not know you are armed. And yes I know that it shouldn't be any different , but that just is not reality. No matter how much we would like for people to all be OK with being among armed folks, that just sadly is NOT reality. And when I was younger I railed against the way things are. But as i've gotten older I realize that things are the way they are and reality is reality whether I like it or not.Work smarter for change. Don't be a spectacle that hurts our image. The other group I tend to run into are the ones who carry openly because it will "deter crime". Cops carry openly. Crime still happens. Some of them argue that the open carry allows faster access. True, but it also eliminates the chance to blend in. I'd rather not "show my hand" early in the card game. But most of these guys I talk to, I honestly think they just carry a gun openly to look cool. If that does NOT describe you then no worries. If it does, then maybe some rethinking of priorities is in order. If no one here fits either of these stereotypes then great. But in my experience those are the two camps most likely to be predisposed to carry openly and question your ideals of liberty if you don't. And maybe I get a little pissed off when it sounds like someone is questioning my ideals of liberty. I do more than my share. I really wonder if they do . I know which original amendments of the bill of rights are which..without using Google. Do they? I'll be honest. I tell everyone who comes through my class that it is 1000% legal to carry openly. But I don't recommend it unless you are on private property. They are free to do as they like, but common sense should always be in play. Reality is reality whether we like it or not.And I'm going to print off the first post of this thread and read it in class. Sending them out into the world armed but thinking that open carry is looked at as no big deal in urban areas would be just frankly irresponsible on my part. Again, I teach this stuff. I do bear some moral responsibility if my students get hurt or killed so I look at this differently than the typical "It is my right" idealist. I'm not interested in my students winning arguments with police or anti gunners. I'm interested in helping them go home alive. And THAT is what overwhelmingly colors my view of this.

And my question is unless you have to actually fire it WHY would they ever know you have it to begin with?

I'm probably the LAST person on this board or any other board who needs to be encouraged to exercise their rights. I doubt very many others here REALLY, HONESTLY carry a full size pistol 365 days a year, attend as many classes as they can afford and make time for,teach the TN CCW classes, teach even more advanced classes, VOTE in every election, send emails and phone calls every time a gun vote comes up both in the TN legislature AND nationally and stay abreast of what is going on in both legislatures regarding those rights, not just paying attention when I'm told by the NRA magazine that something is going on. Who else here has the congressional switchboard phone # in their rolodex at work? Anyone? I had almost 200 hours of training time (classes and events like NTI, Warriortalk Symposium and Polite Society/Rangemaster Tac Conference) logged in 2006 and by end of this year I'll be at about 150 hours for 2007. What can I say I had to be a slacker this year because I spent more time teaching. And those training hours do not include matches I go shoot in or individual gunhandling and marksmanship practice I do by myself. So suggesting that I don't exercise those rights or implying that I'm somehow not as serious about this as those who parade around making a spectacle of carrying a gun like some kid who just got his first cap gun is just utter BS, and frankly offensive. The way I look at it is this. I'd rather be the "gray man" and not look all tactical or worse, look like I'm "proving a point" by wearing my gun exposed. And don't give me the "open carry is a deterrant" argument. No, open carry makes you a target of attention by LE who hate people carrying guns. Not all LE are like that, but enough are. It also lets everyone on the street know you are armed, eliminating your greatest tactical advantage...the element of surprise and the attendant action vs reaction advantage you would have. I don't even wear "gun clothes". I don't want to advertise. But then again I'm not looking for attention. And don't think for a minute that the BGs ...REAL BGs are scared of your openly carried gun.If you are food they can still tell you are food even if you carry openly. It is not about the weapon on your hip, it is your body language and the way you carry yourself that bespeaks the weapon between your ears that they respect. Hell if they will try to disarm a COP, what makes you think you are scarier carrying openly than the police? Food with a gun is still food. Too many guys think that strapping on their favorite safe queen custom pistol makes them ready to take on the world, or worse think they are making a political statement. Well guess what. The statement they are making is that they are far out of the mainstream of polite society and that they WANT ATTENTION. Why are they craving that attention? If you want to make a political statement, I'll give out some email addresses and phone #s that will get a lot more done than wearing your gun for all to see at Burger King. But that won't get them the personal attention they get when they "Cowboy up" and strap on their favorite smoke wagon and stroll through the flea market. Those who are professionals don't flaunt their guns. They go about their business like professionals, not tell the world "look at me and my gun, I'm a big boy now!". Do I EVER carry openly? Yes. Rarely. But even then it is in my car if I'm not getting out and I was just going to run errands I don't need to get out of the car for. If I get out I cover it up. It is just not worth the loss of the element of surprise and not worth the potential problems to show off my gun. So if you guys that are so fired up about open carry want to do that then fine. But don't for ONE SECOND think that you are any more a defender of your rights than I am. I just look at it from an increasing my survivability standpoint not from a "feel good-making a statement-attention grabbing" standpoint. If you want to be Ghandi go ahead. If I see you getting roughed up by a cop like the guy in the story I'll be sure to pass on the word to the folks in the next class so I can get them fired up to call their representatives and their police chiefs....something that really makes a difference, instead of parading around like John Wayne waiting to get hassled by the cops or worse, getting disarmed by someone who your openly carried gun doesn't scare......

Two things. 1. KEEP YOUR GUN COVERED UP! If no one sees it then it never becomes an issue. If the guy in the original post had not been carrying openly NONE of this would have happened.I'm NOT saying what Officer Unfriendly did was right. He should be reprimanded heavily if not suspended. But if he never sees it...there is no event to start with. It may be perfectly LEGAL to stick my head in a lion's mouth. But it is not wise.....and that doesn't even begin to get into the tactical disadvantages of open carry. 2. Rights vs Privelage. The 2nd Ammendment limits the federal government's ability to infringe upon individual liberty. It does not directly limit STATE governments from REGULATING things. Sorry. I wish it were different but it is not. However most state constitutions have a clause about recognizing the right of the people to be armed. But it really gets into confusing "equal protection under the law" 14th ammendment arguments over whether the states can de facto ELIMINATE a right protected by the Bill of Rights. Originally though a state could restrict things MUCH farther than the fed gov could..... The point is whether it is a right or a privelage, whether it is legal or not,keep it concealed , and don't be stupid and don't draw attention to yourself!

Carrying a firearm for Self defense pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 is a lawful purpose.....:D

Hmm... I too have some experience with large guys with knives angry about their girlfriend....... One huge benefit of this class is getting guys familiar with just how fast things move in real time, how much distance is covered ,and what it looks like when someone starts manuevering up on you by ruse and goes for a weapon. If you are not paying attention,"in the hole" reacting, then things get pretty bleak quickly. If you pay attention and take the initiative then your chances improve immensely. If someone thinks they can just "draw fast and shoot" then they might be in for a suprise when the target is more than stationary cardboard.

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