Cruel Hand Luke

You know, I just looked REALLY closely at the original post in this thread. Does it not mirror my own original post? Do not the drills I posted test these exact skills that he lists as "My own list"? The 8" circle at 20 feet is pretty much the same accuracy standard of 8" at 7 yards (21 feet) in the drills I posted. Load and unload without looking at it? Tested by the drills I posted. Ability to clear a malfunction in a timely manner? In drill #1 if you can't tap rack QUICKLY you can't make the time standard. Manipulate controls under pressure? See the reloading and malfunction clearance parts of the drills. The timer provides the pressure. The drills I posted only add a tighter time frame to performing these same manipulations......maybe then the issue really wasn't the skills I listed but the time I suggested it be done in?????????? The only thing on the original list not covered in the drills is firing from retention ........Hmmmm. Interesting.......

I agree with your post too. I was just pointing out that yours was more the pre fight, not so much the gun skills. I tell everyone that guns solve a VERY narrow range of problems that usually only come into play because you were not paying attention or made A LOT of bad decisions. If you pay attention and use your feet (leave before things get to the critical point) you will likely never have to use the gun. So we are in agreement.

People get killed and injured everyday. We don't KNOW how many were armed because no one catalogs that info. The NRA Armed citizen just reports the wins....not the losses....and the FBI only catalogs and compiles details for a report on officers killed not civillians.

But those are not really GUN SKILLS. Those are "soft skills" or pre fight skills. That is why my original post was that the mimimum is be able to 1. draw from concealment in a timely manner 2. hit what you shoot at 3.clear a malfunction 4.reload the pistol. And I provided a couple of drills to practice just those skills but apparently some folks think that those are too much for the average guy to master or more than would EVER be needed.....

While there certainly are folks who do survive lethal force encounters having had no training that hardly makes the argument that someone with no training is just as likely to win as a master level shooter who has had the stress innoculation of good pressure tested training. I see all levels of shooter/fighter in the classes I teach and in the continuing education classes I attend as a student. From guys who have just bought their first gun to Army Spec Ops with multiple trips to hot sandy places and everywhere in between. The constant among all of these is the guys who have their gunhandling down to a level that they can run the pistol "unconscously" ALWAYS outperform the guys who have to look at their gun to make it work and who have to look at their gun to get it out of the holster or reholster it. When these folks are put into a fairly benign environment (the range) and asked to perform pretty basic drills like drawing their pistol and hitting an 8" circle on an IDPA target at 4 yards they can generally do it no matter the skill level. But when we bring them up in front of the class one by one and have them shoot the same thing but under time pressure and peer pressure things tend to start to fall apart for the guys who are not solid in their gun handling. But when we introduce the Force on Force part and replicate the same thing, but making them go off of a visual cue instead of a timer's buzzer, and they now have tha added pressure of a real live thinking moving opponent, hands turn to flippers , people screw up their draw, drop their guns and typically get "stabbed or shot" the first few times they run the drills. If the first time you see this is on the street with REAL weapons and REAL thugs, your chances of coming out of that OK are significantly lower. The guys who have their gunhandling down tend to do A LOT better even if they have never seen a live opponent trying to stab them before. Their brain is still multi tasking just like everyone else, they just have 1 less thing to worry about. They have confidence that they do not have to worry with getting their gun out and making it work. Those who do not have that confidence tend to look like they don't know whether to pee or wind their watch. So having a GOOD grasp of the skills to get your gun into play and make it throw projectiles where you need them is NEVER bad and ALWAYS better than NOT having that skill. Confidence is the other issue. Guys who have that confidence exude it. They are the ones you see who no matter their size give off the vibe that they are not worth the trouble it would be to mess with them. And there is a lot to be said for that. I see this all the time in matches even. The master level guys carry themselves differently than novices. Confidence. The Masters KNOW they can do whatever they need to with the gun ON DEMAND and they don't have that mental clutter where they have to conscously THINK about running the gun. Now I'm OBVIOUSLY not suggesting that ONLY master level shooters can survive a violent encounter. I'm suggesting that the more skill an individual has the more he can focus on all the other stuff involved and the less HAS TO focus on getting the mechanical device to cooperate with what his reptile brain wants to happen. Also if he has seen some real time encounters in Force on Force training he is less likely to panic. Your subconscous doesn't know the difference between real and a drill. It just catalogs good and bad results. That is why people say "my training just took over". NO your subconscous took over. It did what gave best results last time you saw a problem similar to this one in front of you. If you have never seen it before (or at least visualized it before) panic is much more likely. Panic is just the lack of a pre planned response. I'm not saying it is a meticulous plan like the invasion of Normandy, more a rough subconscous roadmap that steers you in certain directions depending on what the road signs say is coming up ahead. But if you can't get your gun out from concealment and make good hits on the other guy QUICKLY, then all of this means nothing. If the likely engagement is over in 3.5 seconds from the go signal and it takes you 3 seconds to get your gun out.........hmmm not much time to work with there for the shooting and the not getting shot part. And if the encounter is CLOSE (0-5 feet within arms reach) you are LIKELY to get your draw fouled by the BG and or your gun grabbed or redirected. This OFTEN casues malfunctions. You now have a very inefficiant club in hand until you get the gun cleared. Can you clear that malfunction? And guys who say well "I'll just draw and shoot him before he can get to me" might be fooling themselves.Most folks really have no concept of how FAST things move when the BG is SERIOUS about hurting you. I'm 6' 240lbs and I can cover 3.5 yards in about .5 of a second. If you just stand and draw you WILL get stabbed in that situation. Sorry . Life sucks. But SEEING this stuff in advance like you do in GOOD training programs, gives you a HUGE advantage over the average guy who just reads gun magazines. And seeing it in advance and combining it with good gun skills and awareness and knowing what the universal cues of impending criminal assault look like in real time makes you a VERY uninviting target for Mr. Badguy. But I'm sure just having a gun probably does the same for you too....

Hard to shoot back with no gun....carry your freakin' gun ON YOU!

Tom Givens has had 41 students involved in gunfights (at last count). They have over 95% hit ratio. About half of them had multiple opponents. All but 2 won. Those 2 had no gun...... So don't give me any CRAP about training having no effect , or that well trained people are always over confident. I guess 16 year old kids are safer drivers too since they have little confidence and little experience driving? I guess I could fly a space shuttle better than an astronaut because he is overconfident. That's just silly. The Tyler Texas thing was a guy who charged in with a handgun vs a body armor wearing AK armed guy. That was not a failure of training as much as a failure in decision making. I know of plenty of well trained guys that smoked bad guys BECAUSE of their skill and training. And he was killed while TRYING TO RELOAD.....Hmmm wonder if HE wished he'd spent more time on reloads while everytrhing was going black....... Look, you obviously feel that "least common denominator" training or no training at all is good enough. fine. Your choice. But arguing that training and or acquiring a higher level of skill is bad is just ludicrous.

I am.......

It does not CAUSE survival. It ENHANCES the likelihood of survival through that improved competence. If it GOOD training it also enhances it through stress innoculation. Once the bullet is in the air it is the KING. Nothing is 100% garauntee of survival. The bullet with your name on it is always gonna be the bullet with your name on it. When it is your time it is your time. I'm more concerned with enhancing my chances of not catching one that is just simply addressed "To whom it may concern"....... BUt the better your skills are the less you have to worry about manipulating your gun if your hands turn to flippers under stress.And the MORE you can concentrate on doing whatever is needed to not get killed

That may or may not be true, but certainly not a certainty. Folks clear malfunctions and survive gunfights all the time. That is why MOVING(so you are harder to hit) and being able to do these skills on demand are important.

OK fine.....I hereby pronounce that no matter how low your skills are YOU RABBI are 100% ready for ANY situation that comes along because you own a gun. And further more ALL tests of skill are useless. All SKILL is useless. Everyone is equal in ability and practice is not needed.

We are in 100% agreement on those. And I would hope that most logical people would see that stacking the odds by improving your ability to perfornm the basic skills is a huge advantage.

Maybe. maybe not. Impossible to answer for EVERY possible situation. But IF they CAN do this then they are far and away more likely to survive a situation that ends up requiring gunfire to solve. My 77 year old father can't do these things. Is he LIKELY to survive a 2 on 1 assault? NO. I wish things were different but he just is NOT likely to survive that. And THAT is how life is kids. The world isn't fair. There are damn few people on the street who are going to beat Randy Coutoure in a fight. Is that fair? No. No matter how much I'd like to I'm never gonna play NBA basketball. My skills are not good enough and my body is not geared for that. I accept it and move on. I play to best of my ability. But I don't suggest that I have no need to learn how to throw a bounce pass since a chest pass is statisticly more likely to be able to be thrown......And I don't try to play with Division 1 college guys any more. I can't hang with 'em so I avoid 'em. Same with the street. If you dont have the skills you need to practice HARD CORE awareness and avoidance so you have plenty of prior warning. But that is sound advice for Delta guys too.... FEW situations REQUIRE gunfire to solve if you pay attention to what is going on around you. In fact all the shooting is the last 10% of the solution. The other 90% (prefight) is where most people screw up and end up HAVING to use the gun. So again the question was minimal skills. I submit that getting the gun out, hitting your target are MANDATORY. Clearing malfunction and reloading are CRUCIAL because empty and/or non functional guns are of little use in the fight. And THAT is what these DRILLS test. If someone ersonally wants to just do as LITTLE as they can..... fine. But that rarely leads to success in ANY endeavor -especially under stress. Luck is fickle and can't be counted on. I'll stick wth stacking the odds in my favor.

There were over 1000 assaults in Memphis Tn involving multiple assailants last year................. You still miss the point and frankly I don't think I have the patience to answer the same questions over and over again. The drill is NOT a gunfight replica. It is an ARTIFICIAL TEST OF SKILL. Can you get the gun out? Can you hit what you are shooting at? Can you clear a malfunction? Can you reload the pistol whether it is mid fight, or just getting it back up and running IN CASE THERE IS AN ACCOMPLICE YOU DIDN'T YET PICK UP ON. And can you do them wth some artificial stress (timer) induced? These are the skills that I consider minimal.

And if you CAN'T clear a malfunction (that happened because you got a crappy grip on your pistol when you pulled it out or you fired it in contact with your body or his) then what? Call time out? Sorry. MAlf clearance (at least tap/rack) is a crucial skill.

You either see the big picture or you don't. This is not a replication of a gunfight. It is a 15 round, 2 drill TEST of whether you can run your gear or not. The time limit is to induce stress. Do you think that a gun fight MIGHT be a LITTLE stressful? The malfunction clearance is because guns malfunction in fights rather commonly. Not 95% of the time obviously, but enough that malfunction clearance is a real issue. The 8" target at 7 yards is so you have to actually AIM the pistol. The reloads are because if you shoot ANY at all your gun is no longer full. If the BG (or more likely the BGs) have friends then you want a gun loaded back to capacity quickly. And if you have a "limited capacity" gun you may well HAVE to reload to finish the fight. The pass fail is because gunfights are like that you pass or fail. Whether you LIKE this or not is not the issue . The issue is these drills test(under time stress and the possibility of failure stress) the core skills to running a handgun. If you can't run your gear under stress what makes you think you will rise to the occasion when it is real?

Back to original topic. Here are two drills that will work the minimum skills. Drill 1. At 7 yards at an 8" target. Pistol loaded with 6 live rounds and a dummy round a spare mag on belt (or wherever you carry it) loaded with 3 live rounds.You will fire 9 total rounds. At the buzzer step off the "X", draw and fire until the gun goes "click", clear the malfunction as you take another side step, fire the remaining rounds, sidestep again as you reload and fire the 3 rounds in the spare mag. All hits must be in the 8" circle to count. Time limit- 15 seconds. Pass or fail. Drill 2. Pistol loaded with 2 rounds, 2 spare mags loaded with 2 rounds each. At the buzzer draw, step off the X, fire 2 shots, do an emergency reload as you sidestep again, fire the 2 rounds, step again as you do another emergency reload, fire last 2 shots. All hits must be in the 8" circle. Time limit- 15 seconds. Pass or fail. These drills work the BASIC skills someone SHOULD have a grasp of if they are going to responsibly carry a pistol on the street. It tests your ability to A.Get off the X (out of the way so you hopefully don't get shot cut or stabbed) as you go for your pistol. B.Get your pistol out. C.Hit what you shoot at. D.clear a malfunction. E. reload F. get back on target and hit it again. These are really the CORE skills to have to fight with a pistol. These drills work those skills and it only takes 15 rounds.No real "scoring". Either the hits are all there and you make the time or you don't. If you can do these drills in the time limits and make the hits you are far and away better than the average guy on the street. Obviously the faster the better, but 15 seconds per drill is a good baseline or something to work toward if you are not there yet.

Not what I'm being told. It is a seperate statute. And again, everyone has to make their own choices in life. The possibility of a class A misdemeanor conviction for being caught carrying a gun in a place where it is restricted is a REAL legal concern. The possibility of being the victim of violent crime and being killed or crippled is a REAL survival concern. Each person has to weigh them in the balance and see which is of more concern. I'm NOT suggesting any specific individual take any specific course of action. I am just saying WHY some unnamed individuals might follow a certain path. There IS a mechanism in the TCA (39-17-1322) that prevents prosecution for defensively using a firearm-even where it is not legal to carry it. You in all likelihood WILL lose your permit for carrying in a place that does not allow it, but if you actually have to defend yourself the mechanism is there to avoid prosecution for the USE. So if it is not OK to carry, but you are covered for the use......I'll let you do the math.

And THIS is why we say concealed means concealed.

New Hampshire (According to Massad Ayoob) and Pennsylvania. In PA you can DRINK in a bar with a gun. And you do not hear about drunken gunfights in bars in Pa. At NTI (National Tactical Invitational) in Harrisburg PA, we met in the hotel bar every night that week and no one left their pistols in their rooms..........No one got DRUNK, most armed professionals do not, but the presence of beer and guns didn't cause otherwise normal people to turn into bloodthirsty killers either.....

A largely useless piece of legislation as the key to the law presently (until this is passed) is whether you were in legitimate fear of death or grave bodily injury. Location (house, street, car) did not matter. If they NEEDED to be shot there was no duty to retreat. This bill was NOT needed. What IS needed is less effort on this and more effort on making it legal to carry in parks and places that serve alcahol.

Anyone have a quick link or can print the "new language"?

Amen.

Knowing what I know I'd say that's an overly broad generalization not at all relevant to my specific situation, locale, or the local DA. (but then again that may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on it-the old lack of voice inflection in internet forums thing.......) That is the wonderful thing about the legal climate here. It really doesn't matter WHAT you shoot them with as long as they NEEDED to be shot. If lethal force is required (justifiable) the delivery vehicle is pretty much irrelevant. This isn't Illinois, Cali or Mass. It's still a "free" part of the world!