Cruel Hand Luke

Big Poppa, If you shoot someone negligently then NO it does not help at all. But we all KNOW whether we like to admit it or not that the responding officers are going to treat you and me differently if you have a badge and I do not. Membership has its privileges. Not saying that is always bad, but it is true. I have been asked to get out of the car at a traffic stop and frisked. But when my passenger produced his badge suddenly it went from "possible felony stop" to sunshine and bunnies and "Ya'll be safe drivin' home ya hear"......what caused this sudden change in attitude? The badge. And Mugster ,as far as issuing permits to military guys Ok whatever.Maybe you think that them having been an 11 bravo absolves them of having to learn anything else about functioning in the CIVILIAN WORLD armed with a concealed pistol. That is your opinion. But if you do not see that military warfighting skill and concealed carry skills are VASTLY different things, then I do not know what to tell you. And while we are at it, what percentage of military guys EVER use a pistol in an operational capacity? ALMOST NONE.Unless they are MPs or Spec Ops they probably haven't even seen a pistol in the military since basic.... So while they may be perfectly well trained to move about and conduct platoon size and larger operations with their fellow soldiers backing them up that does not somehow all of a sudden make them qualified experts on criminal assault or reactively drawing a pistol from concealment while under assault.

Yeah, like I said in my post NO DISRESPECT to the LE guys is intended. BUt I can definitely empathize with Robbiev. It was NOT intended as an attck on you Todd. And in fact as long as the message is tailored to the audience the more skills the better. But there arises a problem when a CCW class is taught from a cop's perspective. The students are not cops, do not move in the same social circles, do not have same institutional support structures in place and are not members of the same culture, and have a very different reason and mission for being armed. My post was more a rambling stream of consciousness thinking out loud monologue about how the average uneducated (not meaning he's dumb, but meaning he does not know just how much he does not know) HCP customer/student is impressed by a big resume that includes a lot of Police or Military specific schools and skills. But often our resumes have little to do with what we are really teaching (or what we should be teaching). Kinda like the physics teacher filling in for the biology teacher...while he may have a hell of a resume his degree is not in biology. And while I can teach you how to absolutely smoke an IDPA , IPSC, Cowboy Action or Subgun match course of fire is that REALLY all that relevant to a gunfight at 4 yards in the mall parking lot?Not at all. Yes the gun operates the same whether a cop is shooting at someone he pulled over in a traffic stop or joe citizen is shooting at a mugger.But the actual mechanics of the gun operation is the last 5% of the solution. Other than that, the situations are really not very often all that similar. When is the last time that anyone heard of a uniformed police officer getting robbed at an ATM? And it is frowned upon when cops run when they see trouble starting but that IS appropriate for the average CCW guy.And a REAL fight does not look much like an IDPA match stage.......so we ALL have things in our resume that may look good but not be all that applicable to the problem at hand. Now, undercover work, where the undercover officer may well be the victim of a robbery or assault attempt(especially while doing drug enforcement work) is exactly in line with civilian self defense. But Uniformed police work and the attendant skills that they use to do their job is not really all that similar to civilian CCW. But most students do not know the difference....... And I know you could not know the back story on this. This is actually something we discussed at NTI in the "Instructor Roundtable"- teaching what is marketable vs teaching what civilians REALLY need. And among my peer group we discuss this from time to time- do we give them flaming helicopters and building clearing exercises or do we give them how to watch body language, how to deescalate, how to access your weapon while under physical assault? The typical guy thinks the building clearing SWAT stuff is cool, sees the body language and deescalation as boring and the weapon accessing as including more contact than they wanted to have-after all he carries a gun so he does not have to learn to fight.... But those things are OVERWHELMINGLY more likely to be used by a civilian than working on clearing an unknown structure looking for bad guys............ So again, no disrespect to the police or military guys among us. I was not attacking anyone. I just find it ...odd...that the average CCW school shopper gives more credence to whether the guy used to be a cop than whether the guy actually has carried CONCEALED every day all over the place for the last 15 years (without a badge to bail him out if he screws up) and has sucessfully resisited armed criminal assault. And I probably should have started a seperate thread for my thoughts on "resumes and what they REALLY tell us". So I apologize if anyone took offense...none was intended. Just pointing out that even though guns are involved in all three, cop skills, soldier skills , match shooting skills and civilian CCW skills have VERY little to do with each other.

My own thinking on this though is this. Is your training really relevant to civilian concealed carry and reacting to the (as Southnarc calls it ) the Criminal Assault Paradigm? If not then it is just not relevant to the students. Nothing wrong with it. It just does not apply to the skill sets the students really NEED. So what if I'm a parachute jump master? Are the CCW students going to be deploying from the air? Probably not....So it is not relevant. Nor would underwater demolition, flying a helicopter or being an expert in the use of the M60 be at all applicable to CCW training. What is? Avoiding situations and eliminating personal habits that likely lead to trouble or to being chosen as a victim. Carrying a weapon concealed on the street in what you REALLY wear on the street. Managing Unknown Contacts (Southnarc's terminology), recognizing the cues of impending criminal assault. Accessing your weapon from concealment both proactively before the fight has started and reactively while you are under assault. Running the weapon system and scoring hits under pressure. Scanning for accomplices. Preparing witnesses. Talking to police. (Which mostly consists of keeping it minimal and exercising your 5th ammendmant rights). Unless your training (as a student) deals with those areas then that training really has little to do with what the CCW student needs to be well prepared for moving about armed (or unarmed) in public. But that is just MY OPINION.

I expect to see a lengthy review of this class when it is over! Tom Sotis is in town this weekend doing a knife seminar that I'm hosting other wise I would have been in Knoxville.

My personal recommendation after much research is either Federal HST 124+p, Corbon DPX 115, CCI Gold Dot 124+p, or Ranger Talon 127+p. The DPX is what I currently carry.

There are people out there that are NOT afraid of your gun. I am not afraid of a gun. I am afraid of someone who gives off the vibe that they are competent and confident about using it. But those people give off that vibe whether they are visibly armed or not.... As far as getting into a fight with an armed person, POLICE , who are OBVIOUSLY visibly armed find them selves in fist fights everyday.Are the criminals dumbasses? Probably, but that does not make them any less dangerous... And the police TRAIN FOR IT. On the other hand very few people on the street that OC would have any chance after they get sucker punched..... The gun is NOT a talisman it is just a tool. But as most people have never experienced how quickly a situation can go from bad to barely survivable they think the presence of the gun will solve all their problems. That is why police wear triple retention holsters because there is plenty of history of cops getting beat down and their guns being taken. Hence the security holsters. It at least makes it harder for the BG to get the gun away to use it on the cop. My own personal feeling is that if you want to carry openly be my guest. You will draw all of the attention and no one will give me a second look. I am content to move about armed with no one being the wiser. I have no political axe to grind, no argument to win vs the police and no one to impress at the flea market. But if you do choose to carry openly at least get some training in weapon retention because you might someday find yourself victimized BECAUSE you have a gun that someone who is not afraid of them wants to take from you. And your first clue that this is happening will probably be when their first punch lands.....

As far as I know John Farnam usually gets the credit for the "3 stupids rule". I do not know if he coined the phrase but it seems like everyone in the circles I move in uses it.I think I actually first heard it from Gabe Suarez, but Tom Givens uses it, and Skip Gochenauer referred to it when I was at NTI. And yeah, there is A LOT I did not include in the post as far as specific techniques and etc goes. Like I said, I'm not giving away the whole farm in one post. Come take the class. But anyone who is a competent professional instructor should be able to teach the original poster a proper draw stroke...hopefully.

Ok I'll jump in and give a few thoughts. Lets look at what you are likely to be dealing with in a defensive situation. The most important thing is to follow the "3 stupids" rule. DO NOT go stupid places. DO NOT hang out with stupid people . DO NOT do stupid things. If you have friends that do drugs or are involved in the drug trade get away from them. If you drink to excess or have friends that drink to excess (on a regular basis) get rid of them. If you go out to bars to pick up women and are not selective of whether they are married or not then stop. These things are the most likely things to land you in a position to meet a violent death. Don't like to hear this? Tough. That does not make it any less true. So now that we have that out of the way......assuming we are not in a fight because of drugs , booze or whores, what are we likely to have to deal with? Probably common street criminals who are looking to get some cash...likely to get drugs , booze or whores. The bad guys do not want to give you much prior warning or to "conduct business" out in the open for all to see. They will want to get close to you so that everyone on the street can't see exactly what is going on. So 1st and foremost, you have to maintain and dominate your own personal space when dealing with people you do not know who approach you. Most bad guys are opportunists. Crime does not have a good dental or medical plan so they are GENERALLY going to look at everything as a risk vs reward exercise. Can I take this guy without getting hurt? Does he have something WORTH me maybe getting hurt? Generally speaking the mugger on the street is looking for some quick cash and to get away . But that is not to say that he will not resort to preemptive violence to secure those ends. Again, it is crucial to be aware of your surroundings and pick up on things that look out of place or people that look like they are nervous or paying an inordinate amount of attention to you. Most people say the same thing after an assault. "I never saw it coming". " All of a sudden I looked up and there they were, they came out of nowhere". Well, here is a clue. They didn't just beam down off the starship Enterprise they walked right up to you while you were fiddling with your cell phone or playing with your keys or staring off into space. PAY ATTENTION! Now, if you ARE approached in a threatening manner what do we do. If at all possible keep your feet moving. It is hard to grab , push,punch, stab or shoot you if you don't stand still waiting for it. It also makes you harder to box in to an area you cannot get out of. Your feet will save you more than your gun will. As we are moving we need to be looking for other people who might be with the unknown individual who is approaching us. You may not know it or see them, but more times than not there is a lookout or an accomplice close by. Now I'm gonna skip ahead, because I'm not going to give away the whole farm in one post. Lets say we do decide that we are in fact in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death. What are some skill sets that we are going to wish we were good at here? Well for starters being able to draw our gun from concealment. If you cannot get it out, it is really irrelevant whether you have it or not. So in our spare time we might devote some time to drawing from concealment. The next thing might be getting hits on the target. What kind of target and how far. GENERALLY the typical civillian involved shooting will be INSIDE 5 yards. No one hauls out a bullhorn and hails you from across the parking lot. "Excuse me Sir, yes you over there. Stop I'm coming over there to rob you". Does not happen. Again, they get as close as they can . After all, unless they are just there to assassinate you they want something like your wallet or keys. They have to get close enough to you to take them so it is gonna be close. So being able to draw and make hits at 2 to 5 yards. I would spend 70 percent of this time working on shooting 1 handed. It is great to be able to get both hands on the gun, but in a reactive initiative deficient situation like this you will likely shoot one handed. Do not worry about which stance is best, you will not be standing still anyways. So now that we have our smoke wagon out and running what else might we need to know how to do? Clear malfunctions. If the pistol is a polymer framed gun and you get a less than robust grip on it it may malfunction. Nothing against plastic guns, that is what I carry, but I am honest about it and realize the possible problems. I also realize that things might be so close I have to fire from a retention position and if I screw that up my pistol may not be able to fully cycle because the slide hits me while it is recoiling and this can cause the gun to malfunction. So we need to know how to do a "tap rack" malfunction clearance since that fixes 75% of the malfunctions we are likely to experience. Last , if we shoot any at all what is the gun now? not full. So we will probably want to get the gun back to full capacity ...ESPECIALLY if we carry a single stack gun. Forget all the CRAP you hear about 1 shot stops. A. They are rare with a pistol , ANY pistol. and B. When you are in fear of your life you will likely shoot more than once anyways. So if you fire 4 or 5 shots (which is REASONABLE) your 7 shot pistol now has very few bullets left on board. Remember the accomplice? If you now have to engage him you are gonna be close to empty. So how long does the typical fight last? Three to five seconds. Not a lot of time to screw around once the fight is on. So we need to QUICKLY get our gun out from concealment, get hits on the target, scan to make sure that he was the only one, and get our pistol loaded again. And obviously clear any malfunctions that the pistol might have. FORTUNATELY for us the pistols being built today (by and large) are the most reliable ever built. So it is not COMMON to have a malfunction, but you still need to know how to clear 'em just in case. So what are some drills to work the skills? Here is one care of my friend and mentor Tom Givens. Target is an IDPA target at 5 yards. Pistol loaded with 6 live rounds and a dummy round. The dummy cannot be the first or last round in the mag. A spare mag on you with 3 more rounds. Use a shot timer to get the time. At the buzzer, sidestep as you draw your pistol and fire at the target until the gun goes "click". Immediately perform a "Tap / Rack" to clear the malfunction and fire what is left in the mag. Immediately sidestep and reload and fire 3 more shots. Par time is 15 seconds. The sidestep is to get you off the spot where the bad guy will be shooting punching or stabbing at. Some people will argue that it is better stand there and get hit and hit him too than to get out of the way. Those people are idiots. Some people here have argued that this drill is too intense for all but master level shooters. Those people need to get a grip. The bad guy is not going to give you any advantage. The better your skills are the better your chances. Life ain't fair. In fact this drill has been modified from its original more difficult version by dropping the target distance down to 5 yards. The "real" drill is at 7 yards and only hits in the 8" circle in the chest count. Pass or fail. And if you think about it, 15 seconds is a LONG time to get this done in. I normally do it in 6-7 seconds. The point is you have a par time (15) to work toward. It does not mean if you can't do it in 15 you are gonna die. It is not a replica of a gunfight. It is a DRILL that works the basic skills that are the most likely skills needed in a close range gunfight.If you can do it in 15 work toward 12. If you can do it in 12 work for 10. The idea is to get better. Now, some other thoughts. Pick a reliable gun, load it with high quality ammo and FORGET ABOUT WHAT AMMO WORKS 1% BETTER THAN WHAT OTHER AMMO. Half the Brazillian rain forest has been destroyed by fools arguing which bullet or caliber or gun is best in gun magazines. Do some research, shoot as many different ones as you can, make an educated decision and then FORGET ABOUT IT. The gun is JUST A TOOL. YOU ARE THE WEAPON. It is an accessory. More important than any gun ammo combo is the combo of awareness and avoidance. If you pay attention to what is going on and are able to make good decisions then you will likely never have to use a gun anyway. Oh yeah, and seek competent professional training. There are several folks here who offer it.

Wow Mars, tell us how you really feel about people who teach civillians to use weapons to defend themselves.... I've met Pincus. Seemed to be a nice guy. Pincus teaches what he calls "Combat Focus Shooting". Essentially it is looking over the gun up close (like I use) shooting as fast as you can keep 'em in a 4-8 " circle. He tries to incorporate the body's natural flinch response into what he does, kinda like Tony Blauer's SPEAR system of hand to hand skills. You shoot fast up close and as you get farther from the target you have same accuracy standard as you had up close. Obviously farther away you will have to slow down and use the sights to make the hits. Most people shoot too slow up close and too fast far out or don't use the sights appropriately at different distances. He works to correct that. Is he a "combat guru" ? A "Hypemeister"? You be the judge, but he has written a book and a bunch of articles in magazines. He gets invited to present at training events (but then again so have I so what does that tell you? ) There is also a FINE line between marketing and hype. If no one knows you exist then you can be the best instructor ever but no one will come. On the other hand some instructors' advertising is the best thing about their classes. As with anything in life, buyer beware. Do I agree with everything he teaches? No. But no one agrees with everything ANYONE teaches. Take a little from different sources to find what works for you and do not worship one instructor and you'll be fine. I might have even considered going-just to say I had, but I'm going to be hosting Tom Sotis for some knife work here that weekend. Does Pincus teach anything really groundbreaking? You'll have to be the judge, but there are a lot of people teaching a lot less useful stuff than Pincus in my opinion. I look forward to seeing a review.

Green Gas or Propane.

I guess I've just had vastly different experiences with 'em than some here.But I'm not talking about the $25 guns you get at Walmart, I use the $110 KWA guns sold at Airsoft Atlanta. I have NO problem hitting coke cans at 15 yards with my KWA G17. But even more important, I have no problem keeping all rounds inside the -0 zone of an IDPA target or the head box inside 7 yards shooting at the speed I would in a real confrontation. I use 'em at home to work on drawing from concealment and shooting quickly as I get off the X . They work wonderfully for that. Also without BBs they work great for multi shot dry fire practice since you can pull the spring down in the mag so it will cycle repetitively without BBs where my real glock has to be hand cycled to cock it each time.So I can work double triple and quadruple taps with the KWA, where I can't with my real Glock. Do they work well shooting long distance in a windstorm? No. Do they work well indoors at REALISTIC conflict distance? ABSOLUTELY. For real "marksmanship " practice at close distance inside the house or garage, just use SMALL targets like 1" pasters or practice shooting them into a 2 liter coke bottle THROUGH the open bottel top. If you can do that at 3 yards you'll have no trouble hitting an IDPA target at 50 with a real gun.

Nice review Tungsten.

There are some spots left in this class. May 31-June 1, 2008 Interactive Gunfighting / Force-on-Force Chattanooga, TN Ever wonder what you'd do if a psycho with a knife charged at you? Or how you'd really handle a multiple adversary situation? FIND OUT FOR CERTAIN IN OUR INTERACTIVE GUNFIGHTING TRAINING!! Interactive Gunfighting is the future of defensive/tactical training. This ground-breaking class was developed by Gabe Suarez. This course is Pure CQB Force On Force Gunfighting Skills, and will connect what you do on the range with what you must do on the street to win a fight. Typical marksmanship-based gun training leaves many questions unanswered. There is a great deal that you still don't know about street combat if all you've done is shoot paper targets of go an the typical "burglar hunt" in a shoot house. Learn what is missing in typical gun training courses and why its so important that you attend this class. It is specifically designed for the private citizen, and focuses on civilian street situations. Learn to defend against a single adversary bent on cutting you with a training knife, as well as against multiple adversaries suddenly drawing guns and firing at you. Learn what it takes to overcome home invaders, takeover robbers, hostage takers and active shooters! In today's environment, everyone has a need to know. The training is open to ALL civilian students, and is the sort of class you can attend over and over again to maintain your edge!! Fight-focused NOT Gun-focused !! Duration: 2 days Ammunition: No ammunition required - No live fire is done in this class Requirements: force-on-force pistol (we have some loaner trainers, but if you have your own please bring it - we can also suggest some venues for obtaining these trainers at good rates). You will also need a paintball mask. A hooded sweatshirt and gloves are necessary for the force-on-force segment. Instructor: Randy Harris

Phantom6 check your PM.

That is pretty much it. Just conducting a poll on whether people wanting shotgun classes want a thorough SHOTGUN class for 2 days or whether they really just want a "shotgun familiarization" type 1 day added on to a 2 day pistol class.

For what it is worth, I'll be offering the Suarez Int Shotgun Gunfighting class here in the Chattanooga area sometime in the next few months. I'm just trying to work out the details on whether it will be a 2 days of shotgun or done as a 1 day add on to a pistol class. Anyone have any opinions on this?

This may help.....http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkChooseParts

But they had guys backing them up with rifles and beltfed guns...... Shotguns are great for PISTOL distance problems. Outside of that rifles or carbines rule. That is why not everyone in that unit had a shotgun...... That is why I like something bigger than .223 for any scenario where I might be alone and might have to shoot THROUGH something. When you have other guys with you with belt fed guns, grenades, rockets and artillery, .223 is not a big liability. If you need to shoot through something you get a guy with a bigger gun to shoot through it, get a bunch of guys to shoot at them to keep their heads down while you manuever to get unobstructed shots at them, or you simply get someone with a rocket to blow a hole in or call in artillery to blow it up. When you are by yourself and encounter a situation where you need to shoot through things.......then .223 is not quite so charming.

Welcome aboard. If you have any questions about the classes feel free to PM me.

Who said ALWAYS? Of course luck plays a part ...both for us and them.But most people screw up because they didn't know what to look for or how to get ahead of the other guy's decision making cycle and preempt the assault. And you don't learn that stuff spending all your time shooting tight little groups at 7 yards......... And in fact there ACTUALLY IS a highly refined method for reading the cues of impending physical assault. Southnarc did the pioneering work on it and it increases survivability exponentially....but I guess you are just not familiar with his work in that field? The point I am making or trying to is that most people just do not know what they do not know. But once they are shown what to look for they can predict with great regularity what someone is about to do.They can then "skip ahead" and make decisions at a much faster rate than they previously could because they can see the train wreck DEVELOPING, and do not have to wait until the train hits them to realize bad things are happening. Most people are only aware AFTER the train hits them or just as it does. But if you know what to look for, you see it in plenty of time to get off the track.

.308 military style rifle like HK91 M1A FNFAL will shoot accurately far off, actually DO SOMETHING when it gets there, and shoot THROUGH the most stuff. Of course it is also the heaviest and ammo is pricey right now and the guns are not cheap either.... .223 /5.56 is lightweight, accurate, you can carry a bunch of ammo. You can take deer sized game with .223 -not ideal but doable- and they work pretty well on people when you do not have to shoot through stuff to hit them. It will shoot accurately at distance, but it loses steam fast after 300 yards. ARs are everywhere..... 7.62 x39 will shoot through stuff that .223 still thinks is cover. It will take deer easily -how many have taken deer with a 30/30? it is essentially the same thing. The AK platform is as reliable as anything made and more so than most things. It is also very robust and not nearly as maintenance sensitive as the AR or other rifles mentioned above. BUT it is realisticly a 200 yard and closer gun due to coarse sights. But how many shots do you REALLY see yourself taking past 200? I agree with Rabbi (yes I really said that) on the SKS. It is cheap, reliable and has all the benefits of the 7.62x39 cartridge. Hard to beat the SKS on a budget. A lever gun or a pump might beok too, but they would be distant choices behind a good quality military style semi auto. But you really cannot compare military use to civilian use. We kill people with bombs and belt fed guns not individual riflemen generally speaking in military combat. Yes we have done OK with 5.56 rifles, but that is such a small reason of why we win. We win because we have the best use of combined arms in the world. We have planes and helicopters and armor and ships and satellites and missiles and best trained and equipped (night vision,and other gear) ground troops all WORKING TOGETHER to accomlish victory. We darn sure do not win just because of the M16.......Our command and control orchestrate all these together better than anyone else and THAT is why we do so well.

If ALL you get in your basic class is marksmanship, then I might agree. But if all you get in your basic defensive pistol class is marksmanship training, I'd ask for my money back.....Again , fights do not look like matches.So why would you train to fight like you train to shoot a match? Why do we still assume that marksmanship alone is what wins fights? Because the majority of folks just do not test this stuff in force on force.The shooting is the LAST 10% of the problem but most think spending 90% of their time on the last 10% is good way to spend their time........seems a little backward to me. Again, if ALL you get in a basic class is how to operate a gun, I'd want a refund. And no one is suggesting a 2 day class (or a 5 day for that matter) with NO continuing practice is enough to maintain better than mediocre skill with a pistol. The value of the 2 day class is it covers a good amount of material that the student can take home and work on withoout costing them a week of their time or $2000 of their money. The key to getting something out of the training is the training being realistic, relevant and RECENT. Ten billion rounds one weekend and no further practice is not nearly as effective at making you better as 50 rounds every week or even as much as dry fire every other day...... but again, this is just going to help with accuracy (the last 10%), not decision making.And bad decision making is what gets people killed or crippled. A truly good class will also help you recognize things faster and make better decisions.If it doesn't ,then all it does is teach you to shoot. The Boy Scouts can teach you how to shoot.........

Statistics are useful only when you have ALL the statistics. When Armed Citizen starts reporting people that got killed and crippled resisting then I'll be more amenable to using their data to "PROVE" that. So you can't refute the argument so you come back with a cute retort about listening to a former bouncer....nice. And as far as listening to a former bouncer, I at least have a clue as to what a REAL fight looks like. More than can be said for a lot of people. I guess it might mean more to you if I had mentioned that I have spent the last decade working in the shooting industry. Some people think that is a big deal. It isn't, and in no way relevant to self defense, but people that don't know any better are impressed by it....you'd be surprised at how little some folks that work in gunstores know. Knowing about a gun- a mechanical object- and knowing about the dynamics of interpersonal confrontation are 2 differnt things....... Oh yeah, don't you work in a gunstore? And I have actually used a gun to defend myself. Again, more than can be said for a lot of people. I mention the IDPA thing because I know how to shoot at least fairly well...and I know there is A LOT more to personal defense than what goes on at a match....much more than acquiring a sight picture and working a trigger. I've never been or heard of anyone being confronted by stationary cardboard on the street...... People do get killed everyday.A good many of those would probably be better off if they had ever seen a realistic situation in a training environment BEFORE they had to deal with it for real.But I guess your selected statistics don't really show that so it must not be true. Try the Uniform Crime Report from tha FBI sometime. Those statistics are not quite as pretty......

That is why I advocate 2 day basic level classes followed up with another more advanced class 6 months to a year later so that the student has time to take the material home and actually PRACTICE it. There IS only so much you can get accomplished in 2 days without wearing them out or giving them so much they don't really "get" any of it. In fact I think that 3 days or more is probably too much for a beginning class unless it is a LOT of repetition of a just small group of core skills. Otherwise you end up trying to pour a gallon of milk in a shot glass. It will only hold so much......

The problem though is that The Armed Citizen only reports the WINS not the LOSSES. I have this same discussion about once a year with a guy who says that because X number of people in the NRA magazine were OK with a 5 shot J frame tucked away in their nightstand that you don't really ever even need to practice shooting or even carry a gun in public since most stuff seems to happen at home....... Oddly enough though this guy shells out big money to travel and train every year...why ? So he will be able to handle whatever comes his way........go figure. Problem is the OVERWHELMINGLY VAST MAJORITY of those NRA Armed citizen stories are about break ins where the citizen has time to retrieve a gun, not about unequal initiative street assault where the bad guy OR GUYS are on you with little prior warning..... THOSE are generally where the good guy (or at least the less bad of the two bad guys) gets killed or really messed up. THOSE are NEVER gonna be in the NRA armed citizen because they do not fit the agenda of the column. Lets be honest the purpose of the column is to show everyday folks prevailing against bad guys. Not to give a balanced view. That would be like expecting the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence to publish stories where armed citizens make a difference...common sense here guys.To hear the Armed Citizen tell it no one has EVER been killed or crippled by the BG. Does ANYONE really believe that? Go to a big city (Nashville Memphis Atlanta ) ER on a weekend in the summer look at assualt victims and you tell me who could've used some training........ If you want to base your world view on best case scenarios fine. But I prefer to explore the LIKELY scenarios that do not involve me being at home behind cover with prior warning. So I guess I'm just a freak for wanting to be as well prepared as I can be for the likely scenarios I might face. Aggressive panhandlers being priority #1. Oh, but I guess there is no need for learning how to deal with that since it is so unlikely that someone of unknown intention might approach you on the street? Or carjacking...guess that has NEVER happened to anyone?....or being a patron in a store when a robbery takes place...guess that has NEVER happened? No, frankly it is just so much easier to sit back and say "well the armed citizen says all I need is a J frame and no training so by goodness I'm not gonna waste my time learning any of that "ninja stuff" like drawing from concealment or weapon retention or any skills that might help me survive a knife attack long enough to make space and get my gun into play...you know, because no one ever gets stabbed....." It is always easier to not test yourself. To never FAIL. To never step up and see what you are capable of. To never move the bar higher, and become more dangerous to them than they are to you. That requires work, time, and coin. I'm not saying that unless you are an MMA trained, IPSC Grandmaster, powerlifter, blade master with the situational awareness of a CIA field operative that you are gonna die. I'm saying that the better prepared you are the less likely you are to fall victim to criminal assault...how do you prepare? Training. The biggest benefit that training may give however is CONFIDENCE. And the confident you are the more it shows and that is a good way to get deselected by the bad guys. They work on cost analysis. If you look like you would be a problem they will in all likelihood pass you by. Street crime does not have a very good health benefit plan. They want to get paid, not get hurt or killed or have to go to the hospital and explain how they got the gunshot wound.... Like dogs, bad guys sense fear and sense confidence. Like dogs they'll pounce on the fearful and leave the confident alone. How do you get this confidence? Train to a level that you feel is appropriate for your situation. But do not be fooled. If there is a fight it will be what it will be, not what your preconceived notions were. If you think you don't need to know how to use your hands because you have a gun I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a wrestling match over your gun......If you think there will never be a chance of you having to deal with 2 guys at one time I hope you are right. Me, I'd rather know a little about how to deal with ALL the likely possibilities than to bluster about there being no need to know how to do certain things and then secretly worry about running into that situation later. Much easier if I see that situation developing to say "Yep I've seen THIS before and I access the program that is needed to solve that problem...but hey I guess training is really just a waste of time and money...... Hey what do i know. I'm just a master level IDPA shooter, former bar bouncer, weight lifter who has defended himself from criminal assault.......I'm sure you are right. The NRA armed citizen has a lot more to teach you than any professional instructor.......