Cruel Hand Luke

OK with the LIMITED amount of info we have...... 1. No description of lighting conditions. What time is it? 2. No description of whether there are other vehicles (mine) parked in the driveway. 3. NO DESCRIPTION of the robber. Is he 5'6 110lbs or he 6'6 300lbs? Is he heavily muscled or is he just heavy? 4. Is he wearing his "gang uniform"? 5. Is he visibly armed? ie bulging gun shaped "lump" under his shirt ? 6. What ethnicity is he? 7.What is the prevailing legal climate regarding self defense in my part of the state? That makes a BIG difference. 8. Are there any neighbors outside? These are 8 things that I came up with off the top of my head that all were NOT listed in the OP but will have some effect on things. And those 8 things will change to one degree or another the way I would react to the situation. So lets fill in some blanks...... If it is dark I would have flashlight out palmed and light up the car ordering him out.FIRST I would make sure that there were no accomplices hiding behind the other cars (if any) or by the house BEFORE I approach him. It is all fun and games until you get jumped from behind.... Assuming I am positive he is alone, and darkness, I would light up the car with the light and VERY LOUDLY, so that the neighbors are alerted, order him out of the car and off my property while I stand at the edge of cover ...remember he MAY have a gun. They tend to NOT like to be spot lighted and have attention drawn to them. So I would use the light to illuminate what he is doing. I would NOT draw my gun yet though. IF he complies fine, let him go. Give a description to the cops when they get here 27 minutes from now and file a report with my insurance. Now, IF he is NOT obeying then I have a decision to make....do I go pepper spray him or do I go try to physically remove him or do I just do nothing and wait? Here is where the more you know the less likely you are to want to lay hands on him.... Let's say he is secretly armed with a knife like I am right now. In under 2 seconds I can access it from my belt and pop a ballon taped to the neck of a target an arms reach away. If you go to clamp on to him and give him the heave ho and he comes out with the knife and you do not see it you could be done before you even realize that was not just a punch to your jugular but a stab.......so I'm VERY hesitant to go hands on unless I HAVE to. Are you willing to DIE for a radio? I'm not. Or let us say I did NOT make sure he was alone. I go to grab him and he just wraps me up and his buddy steps in from behind and shanks me with a rusty butcher knife...nice. Hope that ambulance can get here faster than the cops do.... Now let us say he just explodes from the car and tries to tackle me? I sprawl avoiding the low tackle or go to my default cover to counter a high strike to the head(a technique used to cover your head and to keep from getting knocked down or knocked out) then work for better position and do whatever I have to do to effectively stop his agression. Think Knees elbows chinjabs hammerfists and takedowns followed by bouncing his head off the pavement if I have to. But again I have a very narrow window because if he is armed with a knife and gets a chance to access it I will probably get cut or stabbed the longer this goes. And the longer it goes the more likely he is to find my gun and now I'm in a retention situation not just handing out a casual ass beating.....I know how much it sucks to be wrestling over a gun with someone. Not something you want to be real the first time you try it. Again, I'm not pulling my gun unless I HAVE to. The OP was kind of ambiguous on that. He made it sound like you DID have it out already. I would not draw it until I could articulate WHY I felt in danger of grave bodily injury or death... So let us make the BG 6'6 300 lbs and he gets out of the car with a wrench in hand and steps toward me. There is a VERY good chance he is going to get shot. If he is 5'6 and gets out with a knife...same story. But until he presents a weapon I am not in fear of grave bodily injury or death so NO GUN .....yet. But NONE of this stuff was in the OP so it was difficult to answer THAT limited question. The problem is you can LOOK at a situation's backstory (light conditions,proximity of cover,proximity of innocent bystanders,size and assumed ability of the BG etc etc) and make judgement in split SECONDS that would take PAGES to explain on the web.... I assume EVERY potential adversary to be 1. Armed with knife and gun 2. Trained with both 3. MMA trained 4.TMA trained 5. In better shape than I am 6. To not care whether he lives or dies 7. to HAVE AN ACCOMPLICE (or 2) So I build my responses around these worse case scenarios NOT around the likely 110 pound meth head looking to score $20. And in so doing I have a set of responses that solve COMPLEX problems along with the basic problems. But maybe I should just rush out and stomp him.... You see the original question was the equivilant of asking "how do I get out of it when dude gets inside my guard and starts working ground and pound?" Simple question? Right? No. Tha answer depends on many variables not set forth in the question...am I armed? Is he armed? Do I have friends there? Does HE have friends there? Are THEY armed? Do I know this guy? Why are we fighting? Is this a fight on the parkng lot stemming from a robbery attempt or is this a Thanksgiving misunderstanding between politically opposed family members ? Any logical person can see how these all would affect how we would react...Context is king. If you want to rush in an pummel him fine.If you are confident in your ability to the point that you will risk your life to proactively lay hands on an opponent of unknown skill and unknown armament then that may be the right answer FOR YOU. I hope that works for you, but I've seen it not work enough times to be really hesitant to lay hands on people I do not HAVE to. However I fear it would NOT be the right answer for the vast majority of normal folks who read this forum. That is why I said Packinmama (pepper spray) and Good Steward (Release the hounds!) might have the best answers. I'm not ready to die or put myself in a potentially deadly situation that can go really bad really fast over a car stereo.....But your mileage may vary.....and this stuff is about life and death...cute little bumper sticker answers don't cut it when someone's life might be endangered by the answers you give.....

Wow...........I suggest people actually take a second and THINK before they rush into laying hands on someone of unknown ability and you call me a "condescending expert"? Well.....O.K. then........... I never suggested any course of action because as I stated in the post there are too many variables unmentioned in the original premise. Oh and we also are JUST ASSUMING that he is alone...... I merely suggested that there are seriously bad dudes out there. And that MOST poeple reading this forum honestly would not fit into that category. And that if your gun does not frighten someone then that might be a clue that this guy is not just a 16 year old punk. I also CLEARLY STATED that if you are physically skilled to the point that you are confident about going hands on with someone of unknown ability that my suggestion to THINK FIRST before rushing in to deliver a beat down does not apply to you.

Too many variables not explained in the original post but so far Good Steward or Packinmama probably has the best answer. For those of you who are certified card carrying bad asses this does not apply, but to the rest of the world.... when is the last time you administered a beat down to someone? When is the last time you tried to administer a beat down to someone who DID NOT CARE that you were armed? MIght he just be a smart ass who does not think you will use it? Maybe. Might he be a BAD ass who has beaten people down and taken guns from people before? MAYBE. You just do not know. You know there is video of convicts working on disarms in prison yards..... So on that note how many of us here have actually gotten some kind of training in disarms, retention, In Fight Weapons Access, and are comfortable enough with their ability to go hands on with someone of UNKNOWN ability ? Who might also be armed, and who is NOT afraid of you....For all we know this guy may be the "student of the month" at the local MMA gym, who was actually in a REAL fight maybe as recently as yesterday, Who gets in REAL fights with other real bad guys regularly and who right now might also be armed with a knife or gun or who knows what.... Again if you are reading this and you make Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Paul Sharp, Tom Sotis and Leo Gaje cry, then disregard...but if you are not in that category..and that includes most everyone....I'd SERIOUSLY think twice before approaching someone by yourself and laying hands on them ESPECIALLY if they are not afraid of your gun.....

Loaded, you have PM.

Jason, Check your PM.

Please consider becoming a supporting vendor before you pimp your wares here. You will not be warned again.

Chapman actually passed away last year.

I was actually referring to the state law. But you know what? You want to be safe from the Lafollette ordnance? Don't go to Lafollette.

But with a HCP the gun is OK and if you are certified in the use of a club or baton the club is OK.....the knife however still has to be 4" or less.....

I just voted. Still 94% for less restrictions.

Which puts the 7th and 9th circuits in conflict from the 9th circuit's ruling a few weeks back.....We would expect the 9th to say no and the 7th to say yes, but it is the other way around..how odd.

Neighbors trying to get his range shut down.

Well Mayor if you do no think Chattanooga area parks are dangerous then why is it that the Chattanooga PD SWAT team is going to be not just on standby, but PATROLLING Coolidge Park on the last night of Riverbend during the fireworks show? MAybe because of all the ARMED gang members that hang out in the parks after dark?

Are there situations where it might be useful? Yes. Is it likely to be a "wear everyday" item? Not for the vast majority of folks in their everyday life. Here are 3 where it is useful.... 1. You hear the "bump in the night" and strange voices downstairs and movement in the house. Here might be a place you want the ability to grab something that will stop a bullet and put it on as you grab your gun and move to cover. 2. You work in a job that requires you to make large bank deposits on a regular schedule. Think upscale movie theater manager who might drop 15-20K in the bank on a weekend night in the summer. Would you wear it all night at work? Probably not. But when you go to the bank drop? Yes. 3. Going shooting at Prentice Cooper? Just kidding.

voted. Still 51 to 49.

Makes sense. Unfortunately it is kind of like any other teaching profession. Some teachers go straight form the syllabus with NOTHING at all else covered and some find a way to cover the material AND do their best to cover a few things that will give their students better preparedness. And I'm not talking one handed reloads or weak handed shooting, I'm talking about interaction with what Southnarc refers to as "unknown contacts". That is how to read their body language and what cues to look for in someone that approaches you to determine if someone is just a down on his luck panhandler or if he is maneuvering on you. While I can cover these points in a lecture, it is best learned by the students experiencing it in a FOF setting.

Yeah, it is a bit...minimal. I'm all for EVERYONE being armed, but with freedom comes responsibility. The problem is that most folks (myself uncluded at one time) do not know the depth of what they do not know.And some just want the MINIMAL amount of training to be eligible to receive a permit. I'm not suggesting people should be master class shooters to get a permit. I'm suggesting they should have solid safe gunhandling and SOME experience with interacting with a living breathing thinking assailant (or 2) in a FOF class. Cardboard does not react like people do to verbal cues. Cardboard does not give off a "something is wrong here" vibe like real participants do. You cannot learn what the cues of impending criminal assault look like by studying an IDPA target. That is why I cover that stuff in the CCW classes I teach too. Once folks can run the gun competently and hit what they are aiming at, they REALLY need to then focus on FOF work. My opinion.

Well, we are looking at maybe another down there in the fall. I'm trying to schedule 2 to 3 per year. The first down there was in January. The next is the last weekend of May. That area seems to be an area with little training available to folks and I'm down that way regularly on vacation. I have a friend who has a cousin with property to use, so it just seemed logical. I'll PM you when we have a date for fall.

Most fights are won before any blows are exchanged. Just like the analogy I use in class....."When does a boxing match start? At the first punch or at the bell? At the bell. If you were a deaf boxing fan and could not hear the bell ring, how would you know the fight had started? You'd see the fighters manuevering toward each other trying to get advantagous position....criminals do the same thing on the street." If we pay attention to our surroundings, present ourselves as a hard target and not an easy target,do not rationalize away things that make you feel uncomfortable and learn to recognize the universal cues of impending attack, we can probably avoid 99.9% of fights. And those that we cannot avoid, we will be so far ahead in the OODA process that we will be able to act decisively before our opponent exects any resistance.

One difference is the Wilson or Nighthawk that shoots well and is reliable is not anything out of the ordinary...it is expected. The Taurus that does well is something no one really expects.....The Nighthawk or Wilson that does not work is an anomoly...the Taurus or Kimber that does not work 100% is unfortunatley more common than it should be. The 1911 is a 100 year old design that was created when labor was cheap and machinery was expensive. So hand fitting was part of the manufacturing process. 1911 pattern guns really need hand fitting. But that adds too much to cost since now machining is cheap and labor is expensive. You simply cannot turn out a $500 1911 and have much if any fitting done. It is all CNC machined and put together with no fitting done. Some guns work great some do not. My Wilson 1911 has performed 100% and has yet to have a malfunction.Why? Hand fitting by folks who know what they are doing. Of course I keep it clean and lubed. But my 1920 era 1911 also works 100%...but back then they hand fitted those too........

I work in the industry and I can GARAUNTEE you that there is PLENTY of ammo in the United States right now. It is all in people's living rooms, closets, garages and workshops. Since NOV 4 our phones have not stopped ringing. Even now. This time of year we normally get about 500 phone calls per day. Last Monday we got 1200. And there is NO sign of it slowing down. Think of this current shortage in terms of gasoline. How many gallons of gas do you typically get when you go to the gas station? Ten? Twelve? Well since Nov 4,about 40% of the people in america have been buying 200 gallons everytime they go to the gas station. If THAT happened there would not be a drop of gasoline in the ground at half the gas stations in the US. And the only gas available would be what the refineries could pump out each week....THAT is where we are with ammo...... People have been buying ammo, reloading components,bullets and brass so far out of the norm that the normal "system" cannot bear the weight. How long does it take to make a million primers? We sold 1 MILLION primers (1000 boxes) in 3 hours Wednesday. People are buying it faster than the manufacturers can make it. THAT is what is happening, NOT any kind of government conspiracy crap. The fact is that the panic buying is causing the "crisis". Not the government. Besides, where exactly are they going to get the troops to go door to door and collect the guns? Bring 'em ALL home from Korea,Germany,Japan, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan? Import them from Mongolia? Enlist reptilian aliens to help? Zombies? The UN? The UN can't pacify Nigeria much less the US if something like that were to take place. Come on people let's use some damn common sense.

Guys,the intent was to cause thought and discussion, but if there is interest in a class so be it. In fact we can run a FOF class pretty much anywhere with enough room to move around since there is no live fire in that class. In fact if someone here has a place and wants to host the class shoot me a PM. I will be offering a FOF class here in the Chatt area in next couple of months.

FORCE ON FORCE CONTRAVERSY? Randy Harris - Suarez International Staff Instructor The subject of Force on Force training is one that we should all consider. After all, what are we actually training for? Do we train to avoid getting mugged by a flat piece of cardboard that does not think move or try to hurt you or are we training to deal with living breathing thinking adversaries? The obvious answer is live adversaries. So if your training regimen does not or has never included any Force on Force component then how do you know whether what you are practicing REALLY works or not? Maybe you train with some "guru" who has been in many fights and never lost. All that really tells you is HE has a grasp of his material and was successful. It does not tell you how well you would fair using that in a real confrontation. So how do we know? We have to test it. Some may say "well what I do works in my IDPA matches". Great. You are thoroughly ready to proactively face a 3 foot tall piece unarmed of cardboard after being told to get ready in advance . Again, not terribly realistic. There really is no reason to not avail oneself of FOF training today. Years ago it was only really available to military and police. But now however , with the wide availability of non lethal airsoft guns. The technology is there so that the average guy can spend $150 or so and be equipped to take a force on force class. Of course there are also Simunitions guns if you prefer to use marking cartridges, but the availability and price of the guns and ammo is somewhat prohibitive. This brings us to our first controversy. Is the Airsoft gun really adequate for FOF training? There are some that make the argument that there needs to be a "pain penalty" for screwing up in FOF scenarios. I agree. What we are really doing is to some degree hardwiring the ability to make good decisions at a very fast subconscious level. In a real encounter we will not have long to make a decision. If we just stand and dither over whether it is "really happening to me?" or "what do I do now?" then we will likely have waited to long to do anything useful. Getting shot with non lethal yet painful projectiles reinforces that if we do not be decisive and act quickly then bad things will happen. This is where our subconscious starts compiling data for positive vs negative outcomes where action is concerned. Now, do Sims rounds hurt more than airsoft? Absolutely. And we need that pain to get the message across to our brain that we are doing things that are giving an adverse outcome to what we would like. So in that respect airsoft is not as good for FOF as simunitions. But part of the problem is that students often show up for FOF classes looking like they are armored up for medieval combat. If you are so padded up that you cannot feel the BBs then you are really not getting the most out of the exercises. This is why I recommend that during scenario work you wear virtually no protective gear at all. Just head protection and maybe gloves.. Taking rounds in the hands , especially the knuckles, almost always causes bleeding. This way you know where you got hit, but still protect hands and face.I have seen people hit in the hands with airsoft pellets drop their pistols. I have also debriefed many participants and most all agree that it feels like a bee sting when hit. I'd have to agree. And depending on the distance, it sometimes hurts worse than other times. So yes if we limit the amount of padding we wear then Airsoft is perfectly adequate. In drill work I recommend a LITTLE more padding, maybe a long sleeve shirt, because when you are getting in maybe 50 fights or more per day there is only so much impact you are going to take before you get tired and sore and lose concentration. So for the drills I say pad up a little but run the scenarios with as little as possible. The next controversy is whether you are better doing scenario work or drills. I mentioned scenario work earlier. That is full blown scenarios with role players who stick to a script of what they are going to do if the student does certain things. Often the instructions might be " Go panhandle the student, ask for money. You are not robbing him, just asking, but if he insults you or gets physical then you amp up the situation and get in his face, but if he just tells you he can't help you , then let him pass unmolested " . The point is that the scenario is not just wide open, the role players are playing a realistic defined part, not just running wild. The scenario based FOF is more in line with real world situations sometimes involving witnesses , maybe even the Police. It is essentially a test of your ability to negotiate whatever the situation is and successfully "survive" the encounter. Often -just like in real life- this can be done without getting into a fight at all. The other type of FOF work is FOF drills. Gabe Suarez refers to the drill work as light sparring with a partner.The drills are little fights. There is no real decision making left on pre fight matters. In the drill the fight is unavoidable and usually begins with the bad guy initiating some sort of attack.The purpose is to give the students a lot of repetitions on the core skills need in a real confrontation. Those are seeing and reacting to the attack, get off the X if possible, access your weapon if you are armed , deploy that weapon from concealment and if it is a pistol, get hits on the target. These may sound simple, but many students who have never really ingrained these skills often have trouble at first doing all of these things at the same time under stress. After all some ranges do not even allow drawing a loaded pistol from a holster. So unless the student takes the time to work that skill on their own they likely will be a little behind the curve if we just drop them into scenario work from the start. And I really do not understand why some people have such an issue with drills. We do drills in every other athletic endeavor we might pursue. I played basketball in high school and you'd better believe we did more than just scrimmage. We did drills every practice to build skill. The drills build the skills that you will then employ in the game. The same is true in unarmed self defense. I doubt many martial arts or combative instructors just have the students spar without first building the individual offensive and defensive skills through skill building drills. Even in IDPA and IPSC shooting , no one just practices by only shooting matches. They build their shooting, reloading and malfunction clearing ability through drills set up to build repetition in those areas. The match is then a validation (or invalidation) of their training regimen. So for me the answer is simply this. Self defense, be it with empty hands or armed is an athletic endeavor. It does not mean you have to be an Olympian to survive. It simply means that the more athletic you are the more you will be able to do. There really is no way around that. Many of the skills that might be required in a violent encounter are able to be performed by everyday folks- IF they have been exposed to those skills. The problem is the majority of people have never found themselves in a violent confrontation, much less enough of them to draw any real statistical data from. Hence the need for FOF drills. The drills build the skills and allow you to use them in real time against an uncooperative real life opponent, not just a stationary human shaped form. It allows you to get many repetitions in being the victim of an assault and get a better perspective of just how little time there is to act and how much time and distance effect the dynamics of the confrontation. Now just like in basketball or boxing or whatever, the drills will only take you so far. There comes a time to spar or scrimmage. That is where the skills we built in the drills is tested in the mock game. We wouldn't just work drills and then schedule a real boxing match. Just like no sane coach would keep his team from scrimmaging leading up to a game. To have a real idea of how everyone moves and acts and reacts you have to have the scenario work too. The scenario work is where you are able to work the whole package of skills from avoidance and deescalation to getting off the X, accessing pistol, marksmanship, 360 degree scan and even preparing witnesses and talking to the police. The first time you ever do these things does not need to be at 3 AM on a cold rainy night when it is for real! Now a couple of other minor controversies. Some argue that FOF is not real because there is no ballistic effect- especially with airsoft. I agree . No one said it was REAL. But it is about as close as we can get without having a serious reworking of the liability waiver and a trauma unit on standby. That is why I recommend the least clothing you can get by with for the FOF iterations.In fact at the National Tactical Invitational I wore cargo shorts a T shirt and a light summer weight button down shirt as a cover garment. No padding or layers other than the face mask and neck protection they issued. Another controversy is that the shooting while moving we teach leads to wild errant shooting and will get bystanders killed. Therefore we should stand still to shoot. I'm Ok with standing still as long as you are behind cover or you are farther than 10 yards distant form your pistol armed adversary. The problem is that if you are in a true initiative deficient situation where your first clue that the fight was on was seeing the guy reach in his waistband, then standing there trying to out draw him is not likely to have a long future to it. We really need to look at the context of the common criminal assault. It will likely be so close that you simply cannot make enough distance to keep from getting shot. This is one of those things that we find out rather quickly in those drills. If you cannot back up fast enough to avoid getting punched then how do you honestly expect to back up far enough, fast enough to keep from being shot? This is where guys that have only worked against motionless targets that do not shoot back (or shoot first) have an unrealistic view of the dynamics involved. So if we concede that we cannot always make enough space quickly enough to just "make space and shoot" , then we will likely be in very close proximity to the target/bad guy when we shoot. Logical? So when we are shooting and moving this is often done at less than 3 yards. I submit that most anyone with skill at acquiring their pistol with good grip and a modicum of trigger control can make rapid multiple hits on targets at that distance. We are not talking about firing haphazardly over our shoulder as we sprint 20 yards away from the target. We are talking about drawing quickly as we explode laterally off the X and firing a burst at the target often with the muzzle 20 INCHES from the target. Not exactly haphazard reckless shooting by a long shot. Also what are we looking to learn in drills? The point of the drills are to see what gets you shot less and gets the bad guy shot more. Not who can hit whom the most or who can run the farthest. The drill realistically is only useful for the first 3 to 5 seconds- the time frame of most actual fights. Anything past that is superfluous. And that 5 second and after time frame is where all the misses happen. The drills typically go like this. The bad guy attacks, the good guy gets off the X, shots are exchanged and they move farther apart. As they move apart they keep shooting and that is where the missing begins. But again, we are not looking at the last 3 seconds for data we are looking at the first 3 seconds. In fact I limit them to 3 to 5 rounds per fight when the drills are 1 on 1. This keeps the students focused on getting accurate hits not on hosing down the other guy as you run as fast as he can in the other direction. That is little more than a playground water gun fight. The last controversy is how is your FOF class set up. Again, there are those who argue that only scenario work is realistic and that is all that should be done. Ok , fine. That is an opinion, but I do not agree. I have had students come through my FOF class (Suarez International's Interactive Gunfighting FOF) who had been to other schools that offered Force on Force classes. The other schools had done ONLY scenarios. The students said that they felt they got a better understanding of the dynamics of the confrontation and were now better prepared by doing the drills too. Now when they got into fights in the scenarios they were able to access the "solutions" they had been working all weekend and run those skill sets and prevail, whereas before they had a lot of decision making to do armed with only the skill sets they already had before they showed up. Now, let me repeat scenario work is crucial too.You need to test your total package of skills. And not only that, but scenario work that tests decision making, not just draw speed and marksmanship. A FOF scenario that is a glorified "shoot house burglar hunt" is frankly of little value. The students need to be confronted with real life moral dilemmas and have to decide in real time what to do. There needs to be a lot of interaction verbally between the students and role players and there needs to be a level of multi tasking going on. That is why I like to use scenarios that have the student going through everyday life errands like going to the convenience store carrying bags or coming out of the mall talking on the cell phone and things like that where the student is engaged in more than just waiting to draw their gun. But again, I believe best results in the scenarios are obtained by those who have drilled the fundamentals to the point that their "fight skills" run on auto pilot and because of that they are freed up mentally to make decisions without worrying about what to do if the fight is on. So whether you are an experienced gunman or a novice there is only one training environment that tests your total skill package and that is Force on Force.

Hmmmm lets see. 1. an "ampitheater" with only one way in or out.... how would this be different if the architecture was different or there were more exits? 2. an armed citizen in the middle of the room...how would things go differently if he (or she ) were in the back of the room and not "victim #2". 3. the armed student had a "draw proof" retention holster carried concealed. I SERIOUSLY doubt they spent ANY time on how to draw from that rig...........How would things have been if they were drawing from an open top appendix carried rig? 4. Notice they had all of the scenarios where the student was in extreme initiative deficiency mode, right in front of the shooter. How would things have been if the scenario started when you hear shooting DOWN THE HALL and you had time to get gun out and get behind cover and ambush him as he enters THIS room? 5. Notice they had 2 shooters in the "best trained" guy's scenario. I guess if a truly well trained individual ran it they'd have to hedge their bet with EVERYONE else in the room an accomplice to the shooter.... I sent a reponse to ABC asking why they didn't mention the WV college shooting stopped by armed students or the Pearl MS highschol shooting stopped by the armed vice principle. I also outlined why their "test" was flawed and a recipe for failure even for trained individuals. Notice they didn't have the cops run it as "victims". They would have failed the test too if it were set up the same. The test was designed for failure. Make no mistake about it this is the opening salvo in the Obama administrations assault on the 2nd ammendment. Get ready.

Yeah that sucks big time. I know Ronnie and he is a great guy. I was really sorry to see that in the paper today and wish him the best of luck in keeping his range open. I have actually taught a class there and I do not see how his neighbors could end up with "shrapnel" on their property. They are probably just unhappy about having to listen to gunfire.....What a bunch of crap.