Cruel Hand Luke

I am "certified to carry a club/baton". While there may well be LEOs who would charge someone, all that means is that you get charged. People get charged with stuff EVERYDAY and walk within hours of their attorney being called. For that matter I know of cops threatening to charge people for open carrying....so even cops do not always know what the law really is.... The odds are overwhelming that if you do not go around being a jack ass no one will ever know you have it anyway...remember, people generally do not get arrested for carrying weapons illegally...they get arrested for being a jackass (public drunkeness or something) and the cops FIND the illegally carried weapons on them. Concealed means concealed.And common sense always applies. Having said that,even though I am certified to do so, I do not carry a baton. They are more a "proactive" tool than a "reactive" tool. Ever try to deploy one with someone grappling with you? If you have the prior warning to deploy your baton, you probably have the prior warning to get away. Also if you use them the way the training teaches (hitting large muscle groups) they are really only going to work well on people that are inclined to follow your directions anyway (see Rodney King video...all those strikes were in green zones...that is why he didn't stop resisting). They are most effective on yellow and red zones but then we are into lethal force application.....batons are mostly for gaining pain compliance on folks who are not inclined to fight to the death. As also mentioned if you are going to use one, frankly the certification class is VERY weak on retention. You really need to practice that with non compliant opponents to make sure you can in fact keep somene from taking it away from you. I'd MUCH rather try to take a baton away from someone than a sap or blackjack.... You'd be better served to find a good MMA program or wrestling program or learn some simple effective hand to hand skills like WWII combatives and a little Judo and leave the baton to guys who are trying to arrest unruly drunks. In fact a metal bodied flashlght like a surefire 6P can be carried ANYWHERE and used as a fist load in an ice pick grip can be absolutely devastating when delivering a hammer fist and no one is going to charge you for carrying a flashlight......

Thanks for the review MAV! And you have NOTHING to be uoset about on your shooting. You simply will not shoot one hole groups when you move off the X and fire a 3 round burst to the chest at 3 yards as fast as you can pull the trigger. If all your hits are in the thoraxic triangle (from nipples to neck) then that is all we can really ask for. You did just fine. IIRC we had a mix of glock 34s, glock 19s and a 1st gen glock 17 and one Smith and Wesson M&P. The once every 15 year "snow event" made things interesting, but everyone got in and out OK and now they know better how they will perform in the cold drawing form concealment in many layers of winter clothing. Hope to see you again in Close Range Gunfighting...when it is warmer.

If you are walking to the car and 2 guys step out from behind the dumpster 3 yards away you are not going to shoot 1 guy, reload and shoot the other... ....but it might be smart to do a proactive reload AFTER you shoot those two guys because they MAY have an accomplice who has not shown himself yet. This is especially so if you carry a low cap gun. Now if you carry a Glock 17, that is a lot of ammo on board that can be used before you NEED to reload. But a Khar Pm40? Not so much. The proactive reload is more a "planning ahead just in case" kind of thing that adds the extra insurance of a now fully loaded gun in case friends of the deceased show up. Or if you are in a military or police function where you are engaging multiple adversaries (especially in structures) then topping off before you enter the next room makes sense.

I carry one. The sheath they come with sucks. I carry it in a sheath made by a guy named Dave Pyle . His site is Kydex Sheaths . He makes exellent stuff. He also makes sheaths for the "trainer" version so you can actually roll around with someone and work on accessing the knife under pressure.

A little bit here and there is better than a lot once every other blue moon. Pistol shooting is a perishable skill...just like golf or shooting a basketball. The more often you do it the better off you will be (assuming you are doing it right when you do it...but that is another subject altogether). I tell students to dry fire at least 2 times a week. That way if something happens the last time you handled your gun was at worst 3 days ago. As far as actual shooting? Honestly, unless you are trying to be competitive at IPSC or IDPA, and working to cut your split times down, then once or twice a month with 100 to 200 rounds each time augmented with focused dry fire every few days will give you what you are probably looking for. Practicing for a match and practicing for a fight do not look anything alike.

Rogers Shooting School is a SHOOTING school. It does not really deal with tactics or mindset as much as it does with making you a better shooter. They are EXCELLENT at what they do. But you need to make sure that what they do is what you are looking for. Ronnie Dodd (Dodd and Associates ) teaches for Rogers also. He does his own classes out of his place in Sale Creek. He has a nice little range and I have actually taught one of my classes there. Ronnie is very knowledgeable and a great guy. Claude Werner is the chief range master at Rogers' and Claude is an excellent instructor too. They WILL make you a better shooter. But Rogers does not really focus on preparing you to deal with criminal assault. It focuses on making you a better shooter.

Imprinting the draw stroke through repetition and seeing the sights appear on the target over and over again gives neural feedback and builds confidence. They continually drive the gun to the same place and the pattern of always finding the sights lined up there superimposed on the target builds confidence that whether they can see the sights or not, the draw stroke is delivering them to the same place every time. Then I have them stop looking through the sights and just look over the top of the gun. They will still be looking at the target spot, but with their head not behind the gun but looking over it. They continue to draw and present, but now each time we drop our head behind the sights after we extend to see just how close we are to where we were wanting it to go. Often we are right where we wanted it to be because the gun does not know nor does it care whether you were looking at the sights, it just puts a hole where the muzzle was pointed. That bullethole's location is directly proportional to whether you pointed the muzzle correctly. This is the foundation of shooting well and shooting well on the move. If we cannot drive the gun to the target so the muzzle is pointing at the spot we are focused on while we are standing still, then how will we do it when we move? The key though was using the precision of the sights to begin to convince our brain that we were doing it right. The bulk of this mental conditioning can be done without even shooting. If the sights are in line with the barrel, and the sights are pointed at the target spot/focal point when we present the gun to the target then by logic the barrel is now pointed at the target. It does not take long for the students to become familiar with and confident in this. They get to a point where they can bring their head up off the gun and look at the battlefield not just the target and know that the gun will end up pointed at whatever they choose because the draw stroke delivers it where they want it. My dry fire routine is as much or more about driving the gun to the target correctly as it is about pressing the trigger smoothly. Now as we progress we look for less and less feedback from the sights. That allows us to make hits faster. We are not taking the time to look for a perfect sight picture. We know the perfect sight picture is there but we do not have to prove it to ourselves by looking for it. We know from experience that the muzzle is getting driven where we need it to go...whether we see it or not. What this leaves us with is a faster presentation and the ability to not get tunnel vision on the sights. Keeping your head up and being aware of the surroundings and running the gun in your peripheral vision is a key to survival. We are no longer GUN focused but fight focused. We are looking at our adversary not hunting the sights. Why? Because we used the sights appropriately in training until we had internalized the fact that if we project the gun the way our muscle and bone structure works best and that lines the sights up, then we only have to look at the sights if we CHOOSE to in an effort to verify that our work was done properly. Jeff Cooper even said the sights are not used to aim the gun but to verify the gun was aimed correctly.....hmmm.... interesting. Of course if we are engaging targets at farther distances we will need more than just faith in our draw stroke to insure hits. My rule of thumb is this. If I am looking at the silhouette of the gun superimposed on the target and the target looks bigger than the gun I do not need the sights. That is if I present the gun to the target and I can still see target surrounding the gun, then I am close enough that looking for the sights will only slow me down. BUT... If I look over the gun at the target and the target (or target area if I'm trying to hit something like a specific spot) is smaller than the gun, then I NEED to use the sights. This little maxim will help you read distance and learn to determine how fast to shoot and how precise to operate the trigger. So I absolutely am a sighted fire shooter. If I hit what I am aiming at my sights were in fact aligned properly...whether I saw them or not. So what if I told you I could teach you to shoot accurately without looking at the sights? After all , we use some sightless airsoft guns in the force on Force class and after a brief draw stroke tutorial most everyone is making sighted fire quality hits even with sightless guns. So how is THAT possible? Some would believe it and some would not. But regardless I do this regularly and with great success . How ? By first teaching you to look for the sights. By doing that I am letting you use the training wheels until we build your confidence to the point you no longer need them . Sights are training wheels. You use them until you no longer need them and then after that..... just use them when you NEED them.

Your Sights Are Training Wheels By Randy Harris - Suarez International Tier One Instructor I am a sighted fire shooter. No doubt. And I am a point shooter. I simply shoot however I need to in order to hit the target as quickly as I can no matter what the target or how far the target. But some see it as an all or nothing, either/or proposition. If you read the internet or gun magazines any at all you are bound to run into a discussion where one side argues that only sighted fire is effective because point shooting is too inaccurate and the other argues that sighted fire is for games and that only unsighted fire is fast enough in a reactive situation. Frankly those discussions bore me. The participants seem to be more interested in defending their "gun religion" than actually becoming a better more complete shooter. The truth is somewhere in between, and this is how I see it. First thing right off the bat we need to look at is context. When I discuss this I am referring to the use of a pistol in a lethal force situation where one or more individuals are trying to harm another. The distance will typically be anywhere from 2 feet to 20 yards. The distance will largely dictate on one end how precise a shot I need to make and on the other end dictate how fast a shot I need to make. An assailant at 3 yards is a much bigger target (spatial perception wise) and a much greater threat than a target at 20 yards. Therefore I will need to shoot faster here due to the increased threat and less time to deal with the problem. But as a fortunate by product of that close proximity I can shoot fast and still score hits on the target with relative ease. On the other hand if I am shooting at someone 20 yards distant I will need to slow down the process so as to be able to make a more precise shot. Fortunately for me the distance is such that he is not as great a threat and I will have time to make that precise shot...hopefully. The "point shooting only" crowd will tell you that since it always happens up close there is no point in learning to use the sights. And the "sighted fire only" crowd will tell you that distance is your friend and that the superior accuracy gained by using the sights is a better thing to rely on. So who is right? They BOTH are. If I am attacked by someone reaching for a pistol at 3 yards I need to be worried about getting out from in front of him and getting my gun out quickly and hitting him more so than I need to worry about getting a picture perfect sight picture before I press the trigger. On the other hand if I am engaging a target 20 yards distant I need to hopefully get behind cover (if available), slow down, and get a precise sight picture before I press off the shots because misses will not profit me. There is a balance to this. As for me, I use the sights all the time....as training wheels. What do I mean? I teach people to shoot first by setting the context for how the situation will likely occur. After all you can only solve a problem if you understand the problem. Distance will likely be short so I do not start them out shooting bullseyes at 50 yards. I have them shoot a man shaped silhouette at about 4 yards. But I use a small circle in the center to represent an aiming point. I then teach them about how their body works under stress and how your body wants to work to avoid tension. So if our body wants to do "A". in the situation, but we are going to teach it to fight that and do "B." does that sound like efficient use of our time? Especially when our body won't do it under stress anyway? Of course not. So if we will naturally drop our weight and curl our shoulders forward then why would we teach "combat " shooting from an upright stance with the gun in front of our face? And if our arms do not naturally extend with our thumbs straight up in the air why do we teach them to orient their arms that way? So once we have a grasp of what we are most likely to be doing then we start to build our platform around that. I first teach them to grip the pistol in a manner to not only allow them to point it as naturally as pointing a finger, but also in a manner that reduces felt recoil during firing. I teach them how to draw and extend the pistol in an efficient directional motion that drives it straight at the target no matter what position they are in and no matter where the target is in orientation to them. I also teach them to look for the sights. You see, the sights on a pistol are pretty much permanently located in one place. They are on top of the barrel or slide at front and rear of the pistol and one of them sits right above the muzzle. The front sight could be termed a "muzzle reference indicator" because wherever it is, the muzzle is there too.

Wonder how this would have gone had he NOT been armed.....

I posted it in here so that the guys who inhabit the Training section could discuss it.

Memphis Robbers Pick Wrong Victim Robbers pick wrong target; two shot, one killed by gun-toting victim : Memphis Commercial Appeal Robbers pick wrong target; two shot, one killed by gun-toting victim By Clay Bailey Saturday, July 3, 2010 Two would-be robbers forgot to ask their victim a key question: Do you have a gun and know how to use it? The 21-year-old Bartlett man's answer might have prevented the two 16-year-olds from being shot. Instead, an exchange of gunfire between the Bartlett man and the robbers Wednesday night left one teenager dead and the other wounded. Alyssa Moore, a spokeswoman for Memphis police, said authorities have not released the names of the robber who was killed or the other teenager, who was in noncritical condition. The robbery portion of the case is still under investigation and charges are pending. State prosecutor Thomas Henderson said Friday the office will not prosecute the potential robbery victim, saying his actions appear justified. The man, who works for a local gun range, declined comment Friday. He asked that his name not be published because authorities told him the attempted robbery may be gang-related. The shootout occurred about 10 p.m. Wednesday at the Edgewater Apartments east of Sycamore View and south of Raleigh-LaGrange. According to Moore, one of the suspects fired at the man during an attempted robbery. The "victim", who was within 3 feet of one robber and about 10 from the other, fired five shots, four of them striking the would-be robbers. According to the state Department of Public Safety, the potential victim is a licensed handgun permit holder. -- Clay Bailey: 529-2393

Redbarron, If you look a little closer at the Suarez schedule you might find something located even closer to you in a few weeks...

If a person is in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death then you can counter that threat with lethal force. You can also use lethal force to protect a third party if THEY are in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death. Basicly you need to ask yourself this question....."If I do not shoot this person (or persons) is someone going to die or be crippled?" If the answer is YES then do it. If someone is NOT about to be either killed or crippled by the perpetrator's actions then you probably should not be shooting them....

I'm not from Memphis but I'll chime in.... I have taken Comabtive Pistol I, Combative Pistol II, Dynamic Marksmanship, and both the Instructor class, and the Advanced instructor class and attended, RO'd and presented at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference when it was still held in Memphis. I travelled from Chattanooga to do this. I would not have done that if the training were not top notch and if I felt "unwelcome". Tom gets a bad rap for being maybe a little too blunt , but I think sometimes folks are maybe just a little too thin skinned. And there is no law saying everyone has to like everyone. Some personalities just do not mesh well. Now, as to how his instructors other than himself conduct classes.... I cannot speak to that as he has taught every class I have had from Rangemaster. And as to the everyday range operations I do not know as I do not live there. The only times I have been on the range were for a class. I have interacted with some of his guys and went with a group of them to the National Tactical Invitational , but I have never had a class they have taught. So as a resident range user or retail store customer I really cannot speak with any authority as I do not live there ...but as to the quality of instruction I can tell you it is absolutely top notch.

Spiffy, check your PM.

There is a lot more to do. The trigger guard is in the wrong place so it will have to be moved to install the pistol grip. Here is what I recommend.....determine why you want an AK. Just to plink with? Get a WASR. Buy it in person and check fit and finish. Buy some ammo and you are done. It will work fine (in all likelihood) and will be accurate enough to hit cans and bottles at 100 yards or so. Do you want it for a SHTF/Home Defense gun? Get an AK parts kit,(yes they are expensive now...) a receiver from either Elk River or NODAK Spud and whatever furniture you want to put on it and send it to Jim Fuller at Rifledynamics. Other guys may build a more "historicly correct" or "Museum piece" AK, but NOBODY builds a better gun for serious social purposes. Will it take 6 months to get? Yes. Will it end up costing almost $1000 ? Yes. But will you have the smoothest, most accurate, most reliable AK pattern rifle you can get? Yes. There is a reason Fuller is always so far behind.Those who know his work generally have multiple guns built..... Another alternative is that K-var is now selling converted Saigas now for less than you can get one converted from most places like Rifledynamics or RedJacket in Inrange. They also have Arsenal SLR 107s for sale for about $850. They are fine. Better than a WASR, not nearly as nicely finished or as good a trigger as a gun built by Jim Fuller, but perfectly serviceable nonetheless. This is the route I'd go if I were impatient. Thanks for the plug on Warriortalk. I guess we kind of are the "AK people". But that is just from putting in the work with the system and learning all the nuances of it. Good luck with your AK acquisition.

Well OK then. If it worries folks that much then give me your defective glocks and go buy a revolver..with a safety...and keep it unloaded....and locked in a safe...in a bank deposit box.....in another town.... Here is a clue...guns go off when you pull the trigger.Imagine that. If you did not mean to pull the trigger then it is YOUR fault not the gun's ...they do not just "go off". If you use the trigger as a "finger rest" you are eventually gonna shoot yourself or someone else accidentally. Have the authors of that hit piece ever fired a glock? Or anything else for that matter?

Welcome, I'm from Chattanooga and my wife is from Sale Creek.

Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom used the buddy system too...... I'll stick with carrying something I can effectively fight with.

Welcome aboard from another Chattanoogan. I would seriously reconsider the permit if you are likely to ever be carrying in public. The days of cops looking the other way on that is over. And while you MIGHT be OK legally IF you actually have to shoot someone(doctrine of competing harms) there is just such a huge downside to being caught carrying without a permit in public(think traffic stop) that the risk far outweighs any reward. I am as pro gun , and pro freedom as anyone drawing breath, but the law is clear and the Tennessee state constitution is clear too. Until the law changes, I'd be sure I had permit if I were going to carry in public.

Tried to go back in. It still would not allow it.Cannot edit the post to make it have paragraph breaks.This looks like a telegram............ AHA!!!!!!!!! Figured it out...damn security settings....

why would that previous post show up as one big paragragh? Instead of several differnet ones?Like this one I am typing?Is it becasue of the quote?Or is there an internal issue with the forum? This post did the same thing.....how odd....

Honestly, one of the problems with modern "gun culture" is the belief that since you have a gun there is no need to know how to fight with your hands.Almost like the gun is a magic talisman that wards off evil. That just sets people up for a big bad surprise. If the attack comes before you have your gun in hand and enough distance so that the gun is the appropriate answer, then things are very likely to go very badly if you have no hand to hand skills and no appreciation of reaction time and distance intervals. That stuff has to be experienced.It cannot be learned from a book or video. If the shooting style (foot and hip orientation) someone is teaching is NOT similar to their hand to hand style, then I'd be concerned that what you are learning is maybe only applicable when no one is trying to hurt you back. Under extreme stress your body will naturally want to do certain things. Best to build your weapon skills around that, not modify your body structure and movements around the weapon. If your skills sets (empty hand , knife, stick, gun) are integrated along the same structures then you will be much more efficient with your training time and much more likely to actually perform it under stress. I am in no way affiliated with Ben, but I do agree with much of what he is saying.

Thanks for finally posting that. That was a well written review.This event (along with the National Tactical Invitational) is the premier training event in the US. Unfortunately I had to miss it this year, but plan to make it next year. One comment you made about not shooting a single round, but learning a lot about other areas was spot on.This is something that anyone SERIOUS about their complete personal defense package would be wise to consider. Shooting is not the only skill we need to master. We need to work the other skills too, not just trigger finger and we need to engage in interactive training, not just all square range cardboard target marksmanship training...most people spend 95% of their time working on the LAST 5% of the solution. Good on ya for getting some excellent integrated multi dimensional training at a very low price.

Would Thelma Harper feel better if Steve Mcnair had been pushed down the stairs? Or would that lead to making 2 story houses illegal?....what a tool.