Cruel Hand Luke

In regards to the original question....Person A with no training shoots and kills an assailant who was trying to stab him. Person B wh o HAS had training does the same. IF it goes to trial the guy WITH training can better answer WHY he knew he was in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death and can articulate why dude needed to be shot. The other guy may have a harder time convincing the jury that he NEEDED to shoot the guy.     If training were a detriment then WHY THE HELL DO POLICE DEPARTMENTS MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL OF DOCUMENTING OFFICERS TRAINING? Training is never a handicap (unless it is BAD training and they told you to shoot them on the porch and drag them inside or some other such nonsense.....) That is why Police Depts have RECURRING in service training because IF their officer kills someone then they are going to have to prove that he is as well trained as the state POST standards and the dept expects him to be and that he was acting in accordance with that training.    As to hand to hand with people "accidentally getting killed".....street fights are dangerous. You can fall and hit your head and be just as dead as someone hit you with a bazooka. So if at all possible it is best to avoid them but if you do find yourself involved in a fight you need to damage the other guy and get away as quick as possible. You see for those of us that carry 24/7 EVERY SINGLE ALTERCATION can possibly end up in a lethal force situation. If you get in a tussle and get knocked out then what do you think the bad guy is gonna do with the gun he finds in your holster? Probably not going to just keep it as a prize.....ask Julie Jacks....oh wait ..you can't because she was disarmed and killed with her own gun..... and she was a uniformed police officer who had been  trained in weapon retention.......not just an average joe with a handgun carry permit and no training..........So it is most prudent to avoid physical confrontations and "pissing matches" all together when the "prize " for losing is probably death because you are armed.   As to medical personnel rendering aid.....Do what you want, but you are not compelled to render aid to people who were previously trying to kill you. And we actually recommend you NOT TRY TO. The reason is that when people lose consciousness from loss of blood they often "wake up" when their BP gets back to a certain level and they go right back to what they were doing when they passed out. If they "wake up" with you on top of them trying to resuscitate them then you find yourself now in an entangled fight with them. Not where you want to be.....   Another issue is the cops rolling up on the scene knowing nothing more than there has been a shooting see you on top of the other guy and might think YOU are the assailant and shoot YOU.  So proceed at your own risk. You are only responsible for your own safety. Leave fixing the other guy to the responding EMTs...you're going to have enough to worry about with interacting with  the responding cops. 

TWO weeks to go!!!

This is getting closer! This class is at The Ridge in Dayton TN just about 30 minutes from both Chattanooga and Cleveland TN. Looking forward to seeing you there!

Quick reminder, this one is coming up in a few weeks.....

This one is right around the corner!!!

For good or ill, I don't see a whole lot of people with slung rifles in everyday life in my neighborhood. Yet I have personally carried a loaded AK in a "sneaky bag" (looks like a skateboard case) through a police checkpoint on foot after the tornado here a few years back. I had to park my car due to downed power lines on the road just short of home and walk the last 600 yards to the house. I simply told 'em I live in THAT neighborhood right there and am going to hoof it to THAT house right there on the hill. They said "just be careful" and that was that.     I generally follow the advice that if you are not drawing attention to yourself you are not going to be singled out. No one gets arrested for carrying concealed weapons...the weapons get found when they search them incident to arresting them for something else not involving the weapon. A folding stock rifle or SBR (or even a rifle caliber pistol) and a "sneaky bag" (either made by Sneaky Bag or by any other number of vendors) go a long way toward making things less obvious avoiding the "eye of Morder" and staying out of any unpleasant imperial entanglements. 

OK...so you are then carrying it with you into businesses concealed on your person or carrying it in a case? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately curious so that I know that we are on the same page in the discussion. 

Agreed. ALL lawful carry in TN is essentially an exception to the law. My HCP is an exception for carry of pistol . The Monadnock impact weapon certification card is an exception for carry of a "club". They are all exceptions because carrying "weapons" with the "intent to go armed" is on its face illegal in TN.  And it would be great to get that changed at least from a "academic" standpoint. I just don't know if anyone's "ox is really being gored" by the way the law is currently being applied.  I'm certainly open to being convinced though.    I'm just not seeing a rash folks getting arrested for having loaded long guns outside their vehicles in my area. 

edited...this is in response to OH SHoot...DOlomite posted while I was typing...   So essentially unless you are either "waving it around" out in the open or carrying it on a hike down the highway then you are still within the law....   Steering this back to the original subject....if it then is not "illegal" to "carry it to and from your car and house and hotel and other peoples houses , etc then there is little chance of the "common man" running afoul of the law. So then at what point is having the brace equipped Ar (or SIg or AK ) pistol REALLY making it easier to keep you on the side of the angels...INSIDE the borders of TN? Aside from going for a jog with it or taking it on public transportation I'm having a hard time seeing where that makes much difference if it is not out visibly in the open. Now outside TN you might travel to a place where loaded long guns are a "no no" and in THAT case you are covered by it being a pistol...but for inside TN does it REALLY make that much difference?   I ask this because I know a lot of folks who both legally (and in the past illegally) have carried loaded long guns in their vehicles. None of them has ever run into a situation where they ran afoul of the law. So I'm just naturally curious as to exactly what likely scenario inside the borders of TN would be better served with an AR pistol than an actual SBR or carbine with a stock (aside from obvious size and storage issues).

OK so at what point is  the "lawful citizen" going to get tripped up by this?  

I was aware of the no loaded long guns carry . Until they changed the law for HCP holders to be able to carry loaded long guns in vehicles "Big Boy rules" applied. Fortunately that was changed. The issue I was raising question about was in a round about way without typing 3 pages (I'm at work here...) how the legal carry of loaded long guns in a vehicle for self defense (which is a lawful purpose) would play out against the "no carry of long guns" outside the vehicle that is also on the books if you are not in the act of shooting someone in self defense.    Obviously the act of using it for self defense trumps the "illegal carry" just like it would with a pistol carried on school grounds (which there is case law for) , on posted property, in court, etc. In those cases Self Defense is a "doctrine of competing harms" kind of affirmative defense. "yes they broke the law but it is OK because they were defending against unlawful violence". So if you smoke some guy trying to kill you in a "gun free zone" you are covered by the "safe harbor" law.  But the key part is you have to be defending yourself....   The screwed up thing is that it is legal to carry in vehicle loaded AND It is legal to use for defense BUT in a strictly legal sense it is somehow illegal to carry it loaded to and from your car if you are not actively shooting someone in defense at the time? So you have to carry it to the car unloaded and then load it in the car and then unload it before you take it out of the car because "carrying" a loaded long gun is illegal??????  The law probably needs to be clarified.,,,,,but of course then the question becomes...has ANYone ever actually been prosecuted for this and if so what were the exact circumstances?   And is this something that even really ever comes into play for anyone? So for instance you (possessor of valid TN HCP)  take your loaded AR carbine in your discreet carry bag from house to car in the morning... you arrive at work and take it inside....you leave work and drive to another town in Tennessee (so there are no "other state travel" issues involved for simplicity sake). You get out and go into hotel room taking loaded rifle with you. You spend night with it in room with you. You get up and put it back in car. You drive to the event you were in that town for leaving it loaded and in the car. When the event is over (we'll say it was a golf tournament just for argument sake) you go to the mall, leaving it in the car. You finish buying your.....candles for the wife or whatever you bought at the mall...and leave the other town and drive home again not travelling through any other states. You get home and take rifle out of car and put it in the house....at what point were you actually "illegally carrying" it?        Again, sorry,  kind of rushed for time.... that is why it is choppy and edited a lot...

Thanks! But I'm not sure that is the newest info....I don't see anything about loaded guns in cars without permits being legal now (unless I'm looking right at it and not seeing it which is a possibility).   Used to be that you had to have a permit to keep loaded guns in vehicle...now anyone can have loaded guns in vehicles...including long guns.

OOps...OK, I see what you are saying now (I think). Because the overall length of the 14" with the brace made it 26". BUt even if it is under 26 a 12ga cannot be a "pistol". 

Right...a "shotgun" cannot be a "pistol"...and why the Black Aces "shotgun pistol" thing is not kosher. Pistol gripped shotguns under 18" are AOWs...not "pistols".  The only way that the .410 Judge is legal is it is rifled and under .50 cal. 

Can somebody point me to the TCA statutes regarding this?    You can carry loaded long guns in vehicle with HCP....but you can't legally "carry them on your person" outside the vehicle? That would make the whole using it to defend yourself a sticky thing if you had to set foot outside the vehicle unless the defending yourself is an exception for the "no carry on your person"......seriously, anyone know where to find that in TN Code?     As someone mentioned before, the AR pistol (or SIg or AK or what have you) fills a niche (compact/easily packed rifle caliber gun for travel out of state) that does not require a 5320.20 form to be filed on your SBR......you can take it anywhere you can legally take a "pistol" since that is what it is....   HOW you use it does not effect how it was INTENDED to be used by the manufacturer. You can use a serrated steak knife as a saw to cut lumber....even if it was not intended to be used that way. A shotgun can be fired from the hip....not really how it was intended but that does not make it an AOW. A pistol can be gripped by the grip AND by a rail mounted light ....(even though that is ridiculous and not how it was intended to be used) and that does not make it an AOW.From reading the letters  I have a feeling we are dealing more with the "intent" of the "manufacturer" (be that a company or an individual) as to what they are assembling. HOW the end user operates is another story...   And as an aside note...the guy wanting to build the 14" shotgun with the brace....IIRC you cannot build pistols over 50 caliber so a .72 cal pistol is either a Destructive Device (and why Taurus had their 28ga pistols confiscated at SHOT) or it is an AOW , OR it is an SBS if it has a stock attached. You cannot legally build 12 gauge "pistols" no matter whether they have a brace or not. 

I normally run 2 or 3 rifle classes here per year. Normally a basic an intermediate and an advanced spread out through the year. 

One month to go!

Couple of points....   I had a girlfriend back in the day who was involved in a pretty horrendous car wreck when she was 17. Car flipped and she was ejected. Broke her pelvis in 3 places yet she was able to crawl almost 100 yards back to the highway to flag down help.....Sorry but I'm just not a believer in "pelvic shots are sure stoppers".    My great grandfather was involved in a gunfight in Carbondale Alabama (Mining town north of Birmingham) in 1920...actually it was a rolling series of gunfights....The whole thing stemmed from an argument during a mining strike . He was shot first, but hit peripherally...my great grandfather was tough dude who had been a miner and had served in the Spanish American war in Cuba where he had been wounded so he knew already what being shot felt like. He was not terribly impressed with being shot with a pistol so he pulled his and the other guy was hit multiple times and was dead right there....   After that ANOTHER guy shot him with a rifle. The rifleman jumped behind a tree for cover. Great Granddad yelled for him to "come out and fight fair"...at which point the guy stepped out from behind the tree and great granddad emptied his 1911 into him and pounced on him yelling "you killed me now I'm gonna kill you" (apparently the rifle wound really hurt) and proceeded to cave in his skull with the now empty pistol......after that he got up and ran off with several shotgun wielding assailants in hot pursuit.....they opened up on him with the shotguns and after being hit multiple times he "surrendered". He lived 26 more hours until the wounds got septic and he died of what they referred to as "lead poisoning". During that 26 hour time he was conscious and aware and was able to relate what had happened to the doctors and that is how the story was related in the newspaper... the peripheral pistol shots he received had little effect, the rifle shot was painful but not vital, but the multiple shotgun hits...those got his attention.   So I'm not a big believer in "stopping power" in pistols, not a big believer in pelvic shots or...."seemingly random bullet placement". People shot  multiple times in the "nipple to neck thoracic zone" tend to stop what they are doing and go to sleep. People shot elsewhere...it is a crap shoot and some people will fight on even after receiving painful injuries.....but as with everything YMMV.

Reminder! This one is coming up in a little over a month! 

One week to go!

I prefer to avoid having to shoot people.....it gets rather expensive.... ;)

Just around the corner..........2 weeks to go!

We offer one...if there is enough interest....

Yeah, the J frame is not the ideal gun for the "occasional shooter". It really is as some other instructors have put it...an "expert's gun". Think about it. You have a 1 pound gun with a 12 to 15 pound trigger pull and a tiny little sight radius and often tiny little "nubs" for sights that make military issue 1911s look like target sights.   I feel pretty confident with my glock of scoring thoracic zone hits at 35 to 50 yards....but with the J Frame I would not feel comfy with it past 15 to 20 yards if there was a real "life altering penalty" for misses.   Having said that, yes I know you can cock the hammer for farther shots...IF your gun has an external hammer. Mine are all the "centennial" models and as such are hammerless and Double Action Only. So I have no choice but to focus intently on pressing a 15 lb trigger as smoothly as I can. Not ideal for "across the parking lot " kind of work.      After the Colorado movie theater shooting everyone was talking about how they'd have hauled out their gun and stopped it. Maybe....but only if they carried a gun that they could realistically score hits with across the theater without also hitting other innocent victims. Basically I view the j frame like I do a derringer...a very close range limited capacity self defense weapon with few options for solving more complex problems. ANd if that is what you are going to carry you need to MASTER that 12-15 lb trigger pull because it is far easier to jerk that trigger enough to misalign a 2 inch barrel enough to miss than it is to do the same with a 5Lb (or less ) trigger on a bigger gun with longer sight radius. 

The .40 is a high pressure cartridge to begin with. Glock KBs are due to over pressure. These are caused by either....   1. Weak brass that blows out at the 6 o'clock position where chamber is unsupported. It could either be brass reloaded too many times or a specific lot of brittle brass.    2. Bullet setback increasing the pressure to above safe levels. Most common with 180 grain bullets. This why we don't rechamber the same round over and over again.   3. Continuous use of soft lead bullets with no cleaning. Barrel leading leads to higher pressure as the .40 bullet is trying to exit a .39 caliber hole.   4. filthy chamber (generally from lead bullets) not allowing round to go all the way into battery , but far enough to still fire.    5. Double charging the case during reloading.