Cruel Hand Luke

So, who is planning to attend? I'd like to get a head count for targets etc....   Oh, and RJCAKRUEGER...I do have a trigger pin if yours did not arrive yet.

Awesome. See you there!

I think I do....let me check tonight and make sure.   This is for Glock right?   How the heck did you break a trigger pin? 

Well if she had the time to get the gun out...which she clearly did since she's being charged with Aggravated Assault for pointing the gun at him...then she had the same amount of time to pull pepper spray.    Again, I was not there and have seen no video of the incident. I was merely commenting that if she had pulled a can of pepper spray we likely would have never heard of this situation or of her......    And if she had merely drawn (without pointing at him) and yelled at him to back off and then immediately  gotten on the phone and called the cops saying she had been assaulted and had to pull her gun and gave description of the guy then we might not have heard of this....    Of course it also simply could be that in this case she overreacted.....that is possible too. Again, I was not there, and have not seen video, but not EVERYONE who EVER pulls a gun in "self defense" is necessarily acting within the law or within what a reasonable person would feel is prudent.  In any case, she will get the chance to explain it all in court. 

Hard to speak authoritatively on it without seeing what really happened....but some points that will apply in all situations.....   1. Whether you like it or not pointing a gun at someone in TN is aggravated assault........unless you can clearly articulate WHY you felt the need to point a gun at them to defend yourself AND the evidence supports that. Should she have drawn her gun? Maybe...I was not there. But as a general rule unless it is a clearly defined threat that you can articulate in court (and it looks like she's going to have to articulate it in court) then you might think twice before pulling and pointing it at someone.    2. You are either a victim or a perpetrator. GET IN THE VICTIM COLUMN AS QUICK AS YOU CAN. If someone approaches you and you are threatened enough to pull your gun you better feel threatened enough to also pull your phone and call the cops...because if you don't they probably will.    3. This is the kind of thing that pepper spray was made for....had she pointed a can of spray at him then she would likely not be having to make bail....just something to think about.

For those attending we will have some Suarez books and dvds and other prizes that I will be handing out....and also a free spot in one of my 2016 classes. And I cannot guarantee it yet, but we might even have some Christmas cookies and brownies and stuff like that. That largely depends on whether my wife is in the baking mood the night before....

Now, please do not read my previous post to say that I think G19s are NOT reliable. They are. And they work fine every day for most people. But from my experience they just are not quite as reliable as what I would consider the MOST reliable pistol and in my experience that has been the G17. 

I'll step in and be the dissenting voice.....   I personally like the 17 better. It has a longer sight radius which means easier to shoot more accurately at distance, longer grip which means easier to draw the gun quickly , it uses the full size guide rod and spring of the original design and in my experience the G17 is probably the most reliable pistol out there.   I have seen  more malfunctions with folks shooting 19s than with 17s. Now whether those were operator induced or gun induced I cannot say but I have personally witnessed more malfunctions with 19s than with 17s . Now that is still not many compared to other guns, but it is still more than I have personally witnessed with 17s. In fact when I shot the IDPA classifier for CCP I had a malfunction with my own G19 that I cannot explain...   And what I mean by cannot explain is it was not ammo related because it was quality ammo that has worked in 10 other guns, and I do not think I had a bad grip on it , did not have it come in contact with a barricade or my body to impede the slide function and I cannot pin point any other reason  for the malfunction...it simply did not fully eject the empty before the slide closed and left me with a stove pipe type malfunction with the brass trapped in the edge of the ejection port parallel (instead of perpendicular)  to the live round trying to go into the chamber....    If you carry IWB then the extra length of the 17 (a whole whopping .5 of an inch ) is irrelevant to concealment.    And if you really want the shorter grip of the 19 you could always have a 17 cut down to 19 length grip and have the best of both arrangements. 

Most people lose sight of the fact that the RTF guns were the result of after action reports from secret squirrel units that do everything wearing gloves that wanted something with a more aggressive grip. They were not really designed with concealed carry against skin in mind , they were designed for carry in exposed holsters and tac gear and being used in harsh conditions by guys wearing gloves. 

I don't always wear an ankle holster but when I do it is a Galco......stay armed my friends.... :cheers:

No real maximum size....well I guess there technically would be at some point if like 30 people showed up but that would also be a good "problem" to have. But I don't think we'll have to worry about that.   We typically have between 6 and 10 people for these but we do occasionally have more. You just never know on turnout.   And I will also have a couple of RMR equipped Glocks for people to shoot some if they want. So bring a little extra 9mm ammo if you want to play with some state of the art pistol technology.....

Cool. Look forward to seeing you. 

Of the highest order....

Yes FTE that was sarcasm from GTG....he has been to my shotgun class and he knows the most effective use of the shotgun is to rapidly internally disassemble the bad guys with well placed buckshot loads to the upper torso and / or face.....not firing it into the atmosphere to scare them a la Crazy Joe B.    The vice pres's stupid advice aside, the first time they need to hear any noise from your shotgun is when they hear the blast just a micro second after the first load of shot hits them since the sound wave is right behind the load of shot..... racking the gun to scare them is just a target indicator for the bad guys if they choose to shoot at the noise.....

TN / GA / AL Training Group Christmas Extravaganza! On Saturday December 12 we will hold our last meeting of 2015 season for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group!    Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez International Staff Instructor Randy Harris.  Location: The usual place- Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 County Rd 332 Pisgah AL 35765  Time: 9AM CENTRAL time - 3PM CENTRAL time Price: $60 - pay at class cash or check.  What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you choose to party like it is 1899.  We will work on smoothing out our pistol skills and will shoot several challenging drills (like the air marshal qualification ) and work to be more competent and confident with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. This will give participants a chance to shoot some timed and scored drills and get a feel for where their skill level is and see where they can improve.  I'll also be handing out some prizes since this will be our "Christmas Training Group" including a free spot in a class for 2016 ! So be there for a jolly good time or you'll spend the holidays wishing you had.....  Looking forward to seeing you there!

One of the best was the episode where a Mr Tannenbaum  kept getting his store robbed and he's telling Barney and the guys that he even put up a sign that said "Tannenbaum means Christmas Tree" and the next robber came in and said "stick up your limbs"....... 

Yeah AJ likes to roll like Barney Miller from time to time...........just kidding....   Seriously though AJ, I'll bet you'd have really enjoyed Tom's revolver class. you could have put the SP101 through its paces.  Sorry I didn't think to call you about that and mention it....it just slipped my mind......I was planning to go and take my 686 and give it a workout, but the Wife told me she was spiriting me away to Pigeon Forge that weekend for my birthday so I had no choice but to comply....priorities you know  ;)

Quickbiscuit, if you have any interest in hosting a class let me know.....all we need is a range.......

  After I kept him from stabbing me by jamming his knife arm with my left hand I accessed my pistol with my right and I struck him with it and that backed him out of the car ( I was seated in passenger seat with door open and he was standing there reaching into the car). As we seperated I brought the gun up to eye level and took up the slack on the trigger ....he backed away and I did not have to shoot him. I didn't fire a warning shot because I guess he got the message from my actions that hanging around was probably going to go badly. So in my experience the warning shot was not needed....and in MOST situations I have seen, or heard of or read of they are rarely needed, or recommended.   In your case , I was not there and can not speak on that with any authority, but in that case then obviously it worked out for you .... and all is well that ends well....but we often do things that turn out OK that on further review may not have been the best solution. Sometimes fortuitous outcomes can reinforce bad tactics. I certainly would have done things different in my own situation and given the chance again would have preempted the attack without having to draw my gun or would have taken a course of acton that did not lead to me LUCKILY escaping a clinch halfway in a car with a knife armed opponent miraculously without being cut. But I see that not as a "I did the right thing" because it worked out I see it as ..."I got lucky that time" and I do not recommend the same course of action to others.   If a warning shot is all you have to keep you from having to shoot a kid then I'd agree that was the right action in that case....but that is a rare situation indeed.

And they'd all most likely be alive if he had not fired the gun either. The issue is not that he did not shoot...the issue is that he shot...at something OTHER than the thing that was the threat to him.....   Of course you can choose to not shoot someone and still be in fear for your life. People do it every day. MOST people you point a gun at will stop their attack , especially if you look serious about killing them if they don't stop. No one (at least I am not) saying you HAVE to shoot everyone you pull a gun on.  And I know for a FACT that you ABSOLUTELY can convince people that if they take one more step they are going to get shot and you can do it WITHOUT firing the gun into the ground. I know...I have done it....and cops do it quite often....without skipping warning shot ricochets off the pavement of every city in America. But if you pull the gun, and fire it at something OTHER than the threat then you just opened a legal door that whether you like it or not is real. Anyone remember the woman in Ga who was convicted of reckless endangerment (IIRC) or maybe it was aggravated assault for firing a warning shot at her husband who was beating her?   I'll say it again...no matter how we might FEEL about it....warning shots are a terrible idea.

EXACTLY.....

As someone who teaches the HCP class and someone who has spent a large amount of time trying to educate myself on issues of use of force, I will tell you what I tell people in class.    If you are JUSTIFIED in pulling your gun you are justified in shooting them....period. There is no level of force that is "shooting but not really trying to hit them" which is what a warning shot is. Just like there is not a level of "shooting them just a little bit"....Deadly force is deadly force. and to intentionally OR KNOWINGLY use force that you knew could be deadly IS use of deadly force.  Legally it is almost always going to be looked at as either reckless endangerment (or some similarly worded offense) or even as evidence that the one who fired it was not in fear of grave bodily injury or death to the point that they NEEDED to shoot the BG. And if the level of fear (for a reasonable person) had not risen to that level then the use of the gun is not justified. You MIGHT get lucky and not get charged...but luck is not a strategy and you are a damn fool if you want to take those kind of chances with the legal system on purpose.    The other issue is where does the bullet end up? If you fire a warning shot that strikes someone then you are in for a really rough time. Accidentally shooting someone who did not need to be shot or even accidentally shooting the guy who NEEDED to be shot is still not OK. Self defense is an affirmative act.....not an accident. Massad Ayoob talks in his lectures in class about a guy in NY who is still sitting in jail because he said he "accidentally" shot the guy that was attacking him....when it goes down on paper as an accident you cannot claim self defense. So he is in jail for accidentally shooting someone.....even though the guy was attacking him and the guy needed to be shot. So if you fire a warning shot and it actually ricochets and hits someone then you are opening doors of legal Hell that you really don't ever want opened. Warning shots are just not a good idea......    So do what you want. But there is no level of fear where it is OK to fire a warning shot. That is NOT a level of the force continuum. Deadly force is either warranted or not...and firing a gun IS DEADLY FORCE. As a civilian your force continuum  pretty much goes from verbal to pepper spray (an irritant with no long lasting effects) to physical force with hands/feet to lethal force which would include ANY tool that could cause death...that means knives, clubs, guns, etc. Because you do not get the same training that police do the civilian use of an impact weapon will almost always be viewed as either aggravated assault at worst or lawful use of deadly force at best. Just like producing a knife...that is DEADLY FORCE and there is no level that is OK with "cutting them just a little". If you employ the blade it is either aggravated assault or it will be justified use of lethal force. Firing a gun to get someone's attention and or scare them is NOT in there anywhere. Might you escape without getting charged with something like reckless endangerment if you fire a warning shot? Yes....you might very well........ but that is an awful  risky proposition. Remember there is case law in TN where someone was convicted because they DIDN'T shoot someone who was threatening them and just produced the weapon to frighten them. 

But...but...my carbine is so much cooler than a shotgun and my carbine is kind of sort of a little bit  just like the SEALs use....and it looks cool when I bump fire it at the range...and I can get so many accessories for it so I can customize it so it is the coolest one on the block......and what do you mean a shotgun still makes people stop what they are doing when you put multiple holes in multiple organs with one pull of the trigger...we all know that no REAL operator would be seen with a shotgun because they don't hold nearly enough ammo .....this thread is making me secretly question my coolness and my super cool carbine and gear.... :shrug:   Yeah, it is almost as if people think the most effective close quarter tool we have had available for the last 400 years suddenly became useless overnight with the advent of velcro and molle webbing......

Well that is good. I felt a little bad for not being there, but the Wife took me to Pigeon Forge for my birthday that weekend. 

Cool. I have already taken it too, I am just always curious to see other people's take on the material.    How many people were in the classes? I was hoping there would be a good turnout and hoping to get a good representation of TGO members.