Cruel Hand Luke

Honestly my biggest concern with constitutional carry is what effect it will have on reciprocity with other states now and what effect it would have later if nationwide reciprocity gets passed. I'd rather have to get a permit to carry here and be able to carry in other states than not have to get a permit to carry here but not be able to carry elsewhere. For those of us that travel a lot that is kind of a big deal.

That makes a great bumper sticker but there is a difference between what we might want that to mean and what it historically really meant. A well regulated militia (meaning disciplined and well equipped- with personally owned weapons) being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. It speaks to the citizenry being armed and able to repel foreign invader, Indian raid, and ultimately, oppressive government. But it historically was not a carte blanche "everything goes" kind of permission. It is like the 1st amendment. There are limitations IF the states want to impose them. The 2nd is binding on the Federal govt. The states can (and do ) impose more restrictive laws with regard to being armed in public and always have. If you look at the actual history of pre AWI America (American War for Independence) there just simply was not a gun in every belt under every coat or even in every closet or over every fireplace. It took almost 2 days to turn out the whole militia during the events of April 19,1775 part of that is because not everyone had a gun. That is just reality. Now on the southern frontier there were far more guns in homes but not as many in the cities of Charleston or Norfolk or Savannah. And that is the reality of the world that Madison lived in when he wrote the document. Point is that while we may WANT it to have meant NO REGULATIONS of any kind that is just unfortunately not what the history really says. And occasionally (like US v Miller) the Supreme Court overreaches and gets it wrong. But that is a story for another time.....

17 years of being exposed to people who come to HCP classes, professional colleagues who have even more experience than that, experience with..."less than upright citizens" . A very small percentage of people actually carry...even among "gun people". The accepted ratio is about 10% of the people who have a permit carry on a regular basis. Do people carry without a permit? YES. But it is still less than 1 percent of the population. Just because I would like for people not to be numb skulls does not mean I'm anti liberty or want to ban guns or any other illogical crap. I simply think the more people that are aware of safe gun handling practices the safer we all are. How do we MAKE that happen? Don't know. Should the govt mandate it? In theory no. And even if it did you can't legislate all people being conscientious any more than you can legislate all people being moral or legislate all people using deoderant.... At least with the current HCP law in place those who choose to get a permit are a captive audience for some safe gunhandling and leagl education. Without it they are not. But then again.....is it a really big deal since less than 1 percent of the population is armed at any particular time? Who knows.

If they accidentally shoot themselves that solves problems in and of itself. We can hypothetical this to death and paint ourselves into corners. We can argue that since people are gonna rob banks anyway we shouldn't make bank robbery illegal....but that makes no sense either. Bottom line is I think it is better for society as a whole for people to be exposed to safe gunhandling and know what the law in their state is in regards to deadly force. Most people once exposed will try to not do stupid stuff. People who are not exposed to it simply will keep on not knowing what they don't know. If you don't know how to handle a gun but never carry it on the street it has no effect on anyone but those in your home. If you don't know how to handle a gun and you carry it out in public it potentially effects other people. How likely is there to be a negative outcome? Probably not very likely very regularly. But unfortunately negative outcomes with guns tend to be very serious to those that they happen to.

Yes. The "mandate" is a tough issue. There is theory and practice. In theory people should be able to not murder each other, steal from each other or rape each other ...unfortunately a small portion of society do those things on a regular basis. In theory all people would know how to safely handle a gun and be conscientious of the fact that doing something dumb might have effects on people 500 yards away....but unfortunately that is not always the case. So in practice, states have mandated that people get a permit and most states have mandated some form of training. Do I think that there will be "blood in the streets" with constitutional carry? No of course not. But I also don't think constitutional carry will suddenly make numb skulls stop being numb skulls either..... now they'll just be armed potentially with no one having ever exposed them to proper gun handling and when my family might potentially be down range from those people I am a little bit concerned. It is not that I think people should not carry. I think people who refuse to avail themselves of education in safe and proper gun handling should have the common decency to not carry and handle guns in public.

Nor am I....there never has been "blood in the streets" because so few people actually carry anyway.....when there is blood in the streets it is criminal on criminal "victimless" crime . I'm not a "save one child" thing either......if I were I'd try to get swimming pools banned. But if I know people are going to be armed I tend to feel more at ease around level headed people who know how to handle guns (and when to NOT handle them) than around people who don't .

And there is truth to this too....When we consider how many people actually carry it is a small fraction of the population. So we really are probably fretting over a tiny percentage of people who would carry that are not already getting a permit to carry. At the same time though I have seen enough people at public ranges and in HCP classes before they were exposed to proper gun handling etiquette that I'd feel more comfy knowing my family is potentially down range if those people had better gun handling habits.

So you're saying that "Joe and his Glock" should be able to carry without knowing anything about gun safety, marksmanship, legality or legal ramifications of a shooting ?

Yes and I don't at all buy the "since trained people occasionally hit bystanders then training is irrelevant" argument. In that vein then why require a drivers license if licensed drivers still have wrecks..... ?

If it does not apply to you then it does not apply to you..... But there are A LOT of people moving into Nashville from California who are bringing their voting patterns with them. As to Eddy Eagle I'm all for it. As a public service children should be taught gun safety in school just like they are taught to ride their bicycle with the flow of traffic and how to drive in drivers ed. And frankly on a personal level I'd rather people who are carrying loaded guns in public have at least a rudimentary knowledge of gun safety and the law. But you will find far more people here at TGO (or at least the far more vocal) who think you should be able to carry ...period. And they will claim any differing opinion is driven by either hate of freedom or of love of monetary gain if you are an HCP instructor. I assure you, I make far more money off more advanced classes than HCP classes and in fact I rarely even teach HCP classes any more so if the HCP went away I certainly would not be crying because of the loss of revenue. My own personal opinion is that on your own property you can be as educated or uneducated with regards to firearms (and everything else) as you want to be. In fact I think it should be like cars....you can buy ANY car (or gun) and drive it (or shoot or use it to defend yourself) on your own property without a license. But once you step out onto the public streets then you have a duty to be safe and conscientious since the whole world is now down range. But how to MAKE people be safer is the question...or should the govt even have the ability to mandate that ? Or at least how do we try to make sure they are exposed to the information if not through a mandated class? By law (as it is now) ? If not then how? That is the question. As far as the TN state constitution goes it clearly states the state has a right to regulate the wearing of arms and that has not been successfully challenged so as it stands they CAN require a permit to carry in public. My view of the upside to that is that since they DO require it then at least people who otherwise would NEVER avail themselves of learning anything about the law or even how to safely operate a gun are now "forced" to be exposed to it in order to get the permit. So while we can argue whether the permit requirement is good or bad I don't think anyone can make a reasonable argument about how people being less safe is better for them or society....

That is an interesting phenomenon......people grow tired of the yoke of oppressive government in liberal states and then move to more conservative states to enjoy the lower cost of living, more family friendly culture and more freedom....then they promptly get to the new state and start voting for the same kind of liberal candidates they voted for back in NJ, NY, CA, IL, MA, etc because that is who their families have always voted for and soon the new place starts to look just like the $hithole they left before.....

Has that changed? Didn't that used to you were immune from civil liability if the person you shot was committing a crime? Edited to add....I think I was thinking of TCA 29-34-201

What exactly are you saying here? He's proposing changing law so that if you aren't charged in a shooting incident, also can't be sued. - OS How would that differ from TCA 39-11-622 ?

And those that it does not affect in any way simply yawn and move on......

What exactly are you saying here?

Thanks to those who came out!I will be putting the Christmas Training Day Extravaganza listing up in next few days.

Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't....some GPSs go right to it and others get confused. If you want to follow me in the morning you are welcome to do so. Just let me know.

Now THAT'S funny......

TCA 39-17-1308 speaks to possession... not to use.....it merely gives the affirmative defenses for possession...not anything about use. 39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon. I'm not an attorney and I'm guessing your instructor probably wasn't either. So you might want to get a second opinion from an actual attorney . After all he is going to be the one explaining why you were using a club against an unarmed opponent if you get arrested. Barring some disparity of force issue (big strong young guy vs old small, weak guy or multiple assailants) a civilian still can't use a weapon against an unarmed opponent....that is technically aggravated assault. Pepper Spray and Tasers are viewed differently as they are not considered lethal force. The certification is not an "its all OK now " card. It does not change the way the law looks at civilian use of force vs police use of force. While police can use a club to gain pain compliance civilians are held to a different standard. And while a cop CAN use a club on someone who punches him You as a civilian can still ONLY respond with a commensurate amount of force. The certification card merely gives you an affirmative defense to carrying that deadly weapon (club) on your person in public . You will still have to use it within parameters of established state law and still have to explain why a reasonable person (who is not a cop) thought he needed to use a weapon against an unarmed opponent...and possibly explain it in front of a jury.

The way I read it was the fault lines were for standards stages only....see 6.3.1 So apparently a "Fault Line" and a "visual reference line" are 2 different things.....

I carried a 16" ASP when I worked the door at a music club in college. If I carry an impact weapon now it is either a sap or blackjack. While the ASP looks bad ass while being deployed (and in my own experience that HAS stopped more than one fight before it got started) it does not hit nearly as hard as a sap or a jack when you actually have to use it. And a sap or a jack tends to work better in entangled fights where there is not much room to "wind up". And if you hit people where it will be effective then you are using that baton as a deadly force tool....and that brings up the simple truth that no one wants to hear.... In TN a civilian can only use equal force under the law. A police officer is NOT bound by that. So while a police officer can legally beat your ass with a metal rod (baton) to get control of you in order to cuff you , a civilian would have to be in legitimate fear of grave bodily injury or death to use a baton. IF you actually ARE in fear of grave bodily injury or death then your firearm is the better solution 95+% of the time. When is that 5% you ask? When I'm involved with a contact distance problem that would preclude me cleanly introducing the gun into the situation without it getting grabbed or getting my draw fouled. If I'm in a tangle (clinch) with dude or dudes trying to kill me then I need to be very careful about introducing the gun. Yes I know Zimmerman got his gun out under pressure but that was as much blind luck on his part as any real skill and he could just as easily have been disarmed and murdered. In this situation a baton would likely be just short of useless as you would be unlikely to get it opened and not have the distance to make the strikes hit hard enough to do enough damage to change their channel. At that distance interval the baton will likely have to be used in the closed position to strike with to then make enough space to fully deploy it...and good luck with that it it is 2 or 3 on one. We can make a good argument here that a blade (or any sharp pointy thing) would be better at less than 1 arms length at getting people to let go of you. So if we then accept that the baton (which under TN law is a "club" ) is a deadly force weapon, (just like a gun or knife) then we cannot legally employ it unless in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.....and if we ARE in fact in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death then the gun you carry is probably a better option than the baton. Just like you can't "Shoot them just a little" and it not be deadly force, or "stab them just a little" and that not be deadly force the law says you can't "hit them just a little" with a club and it not be deadly force either. Now, we MIGHT be able to make the argument that if it was used 100% within the parameters that the certifying company or agency that certified you to use the baton (in my case Monadnok) teaches as less lethal usage to make them comply, without striking anywhere that might be viewed as potentially causing permanent injury (yellow zones ) or any lethal area (red zones), then you MIGHT be able to argue your way out of that epic beat down you put on someone with an impact weapon....as long as they were employing lethal force against you to begin with. Hope your attorney has some experience with this.... But again, the state views the mere interjection of your club as deadly force and unless the other guy was using lethal force against you, then it probably will not go well for you in court. Ok so what about multiple assailants? How about using a baton against them since that would be lethal force due to disparity of force ? Why would you pull a baton and try to fight multiple assailants with an impact weapon when you would already be justified to pull a gun, use it from distance so as to not get entangled with them and be more likely to survive unscathed? OK well what if I don't have a gun? What if I am somewhere that does not allow firearms? Tell me where you can legally carry an impact weapon that you could not legally carry a gun? Think about it....those "No weapons" signs mean NO WEAPONS not just no guns and whether you use a baton or a gun it is all the same. There is a reason "clubs" are prohibited from being carried under state law UNLESS you have been certified in their use. Carrying with a certification is an affirmative defense...not a "not get arrested" card. The only exception on this is if you pick up an improvised "club" and use it but we were discussing BYOC "bringing your own club". Having said that , if you want to avail yourself of your right to get certified and carry an impact weapon, do so, but just be aware that civilians operate under different rules than cops with regards to using impact weapons. No lethal force used against you, no club for you. Again, cops use 'em because under state law they can use ANY and ALL force required to take people into custody....civilians can only use a commensurate amount of force to the force being used against them to repel the unlawful attack. So if even legally using a club requires that lethal force is first being used against you, then the club might not be the most appropriate tool to employ......

REMINDER!!!! This is coming up THIS SATURDAY!!!

TN / GA / AL Training Group Subject: Pistol Sniping - Short range precision and long range performance. On Saturday Nov 19 we will hold our November meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group! (Everyone is welcome) Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy HarrisLocation: The usual place- Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 County Rd 332 Pisgah AL 35765 Time: 9AM CENTRAL time - 3PM CENTRAL timePrice: $60 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. We will work on smoothing out our pistol skills and will shoot several challenging drills (like the challenging Military 221- Excellence in Competition Match ) and work to be more competent and confident with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. Rifles are awesome but they are not always close by. The pistol is far more likely to be the weapon you will have in hand be it robbery, terrorism or whatever. This will give participants a chance to shoot some timed and scored drills and get a feel for where their skill level is and see where they can improve especially at distance. Looking forward to seeing you there!

I'd like to say a big thanks to those who came out and participated and I hope to see you all in class again sometime!

ONE WEEK TO GO!!! it is widely known that the majority of defensive shootings take place in low light conditions. But how often do you actually get to practice in those conditions? And better yet how often do you have the opportunity to actually learn how to best use those conditions to your benefit ? We still have spots available. Hope to see you Saturday night!