Cruel Hand Luke

We have a winner..... If the Republicans would actually follow through and DO what they run on when they have the majority then they would get better publicity here.

If that alternative is control by those who are militantly against us then I'll take the lukewarm support from our "friends"as opposed to what would be boiling opposition from our "enemies". On a national level which party tends to support more gun control and which supports less? Until there is a better alternative that is what we are stuck with. And letting a few snakes in to keep from having mice is a dangerous game to play if the snakes continue to multiply....

It sure beats the alternative...

I agree nothing good comes from this but IF it is going to happen at least the potential "penalty" of the accuser having to pay back the accused double the legal cost might stop some from doing it.

It should be that the person who filed the complaint has to pay back DOUBLE your legal fees if you go to court and get it overturned..... These things happen ( guy in Maryland ) because there is no "penalty" for false accusation or for using the police to harass someone. I'd say if you want to put this into law write into it that if it turns out that the person is found to NOT be a danger that the complainant has to pay back DOUBLE the legal bills. Otherwise there is really nothing stopping some snowflake relative or even acquaintances who don't like the fact that you own guns from causing you all kinds of hell trying to prove you are not a danger.

We had a pretty solid turnout of 9 people in spite of the ominous weather forecast. The early part of the day was..."challenging" ....from a standpoint of scoring targets .....and keeping them from blowing away. But part of training is learning and experiencing and having to adapt to adversity and while we'd all much rather shoot on a nice sunny fall or spring day we probably learn more about ourselves and our equipment when the weather is not optimal. As the day progressed the weather got better and the shooting too. We saw some pretty solid shooting from everyone. Big thanks to everyone who came out and participated and hopefully you'll get good use out of your Christmas present.....even if you just use it as a bottle opener. MERRY CHRISTMAS !

And THAT is another 100 page thread in the making...

The issue is that it is viewed as lethal force. The reason it is viewed as "less lethal" for cops is because they ostensibly have training in its use and are using it to subdue not to kill . If you hit someone in the head with a blackjack (or a sap or a baton to a lesser degree) you run a pretty fair chance of giving them a depressed skull fracture. There is a reason that very few police departments allow the use of saps and blackjacks anymore. The certification class teaches you to target areas that are less likely to cause permanent crippling injury or death. Police can use any means necessary to effect an arrest. Civilians cannot. If you refuse to comply with the officer's commands he can MAKE you comply with empty hands , taser , pepper spray, baton or even a firearm. A civilian can only use lethal force in response to lethal force. Due to his job description he does not operate under the same rules a civilian does. For the police officer the baton is just another level up from pepper spray in the use of force continuum....for a civilian it is viewed as aggravated assault unless he is responding to lethal force. A cop can hit you with a baton for punching him....a civilian is going to have a whole lot of explaining to do as to why he hit someone with a stick (aggravated assault) for punching him . I'm not saying it cannot be articulated , I'm saying it will probably have to be articulated and the answer is not just "Because he hit me"...... We can make the argument that for the average civilian going about their business the baton really serves no purpose. Police use it to subdue and take into custody individuals who do not want to be subdued and taken into custody. Civilians out in the street are not really supposed to be doing that..... And as such for a civilian , the club (sap, jack, baton) is viewed not a physical compliance tool to effect an arrest but as a lethal force tool. And if you are legally justified to use the baton you are justified to shoot them. Nobody seems to like to hear that but that is the reality of it. Full disclosure... I actually attended that same Monadnock certification class with Prag back in 2006 and have carried (and maybe used?) a baton when working security in the entertainment business back in the day. I also own about a dozen saps and jacks (Boston Leather, D3 Protection, Foster Brothers) and occasionally carry them. But the curse of being a big strong still fairly young dude is that the court system is going to view my use of a blackjack differently than Prag's use of it. In all honesty if I am justified to use the sap or jack I'm justified in using the pistol.

Well...there is that too

No worries man, it is just that on a personal level I find it extremely ironic that somehow in all the other states that allow drinking while carrying we just do not see widespread blood in the streets from crazed drunken gunfights in bars. If the Pennsylvanians of Quaker descent can somehow see their way to passing legislation approving being armed and drinking alcohol as long as you are not over the limit to drive then you'd think that the Tennesseans of Revolutionary War veteran descent might be able to come to the same conclusion.... but as of yet that is not the case. At the National Tactical Invitational in 2007 in Harrisburg PA there were probably 100 armed people drinking in the bar of the host hotel every night of the event ....which was perfectly legal under Pennsylvania law.......and even with a room full of ARMED type A personalities (many with more than one gun on them) there were no incidents at all. Here's a secret. There have ALWAYS been armed people in bars. I worked in the bar business for a few years in college. People ALREADY carried guns in bars before it was legal AT ALL and yet we do not see the streets running red from drunken gun battles over Monday Night Football at Hooters ..... or over games of pool at any number of "dive" bars throughout the state. And if they think none of those people that are drinking are carrying or that none of the people that are carrying are drinking no matter what the law says , that is just naive on the part of the legislature. As long as there have been bars there have been people carrying weapons in them...legal or not. Now.....Is it a good idea to drink a beer and carry? That is a 100 page thread for another time. Is it a good idea to be armed and go out drinking with the intention of getting drunk. ABSOLUTELY NOT...and there is really no debate on that. But then again the effects a beer or two might have on a 100 lb non drinker vs the effect it will have on a 250 lb person who drinks alcohol regularly are different. Two beers over the course of an hour might have little effect on one and have much more effect on the other. And lets be honest which is more LIKELY to cause death or injury? Driving at .05 BAC or carrying a gun at .05 BAC? Driving your car is far more common than pulling your gun out is.... Which REALLY effects more people? I didn't mean to derail the thread, my point is simply that for some reason some people in Tennessee think alcohol causes guns to go off.... Pulling the trigger is what causes guns to go off. It is either a conscious decision (good or bad) to pull the trigger or it is an accident (normally caused from needless and careless handling) when they do go off unintentionally. I doubt this case was a conscious alcohol impaired bad decision to fire the gun and was more likely careless handling due to poor choice in carry method. But again I could be wrong. But based on being around armed people (both the well trained and the woefully untrained and both the legally and illegally armed ) on a daily basis for 25 years I feel pretty comfortable that this was probably not a conscious decision and more likely careless handling that led to this incident. And careless handling due to poor carry methods are the most dangerous part of the equation......not the presence of the alcohol.....in my opinion. End Notes: For those who might not quite be tracking the reference I mention "of Quaker descent" as that Quakers are who founded Pennsylvania and "Revolutionary War veterans" are largely who founded TN as land in TN was given as grants for service in the war. Both my mother and father's families were early pioneers in Tennessee and both families had Revolutionary War veterans. In fact my father's family was here in Tennessee before TN was a state and before the USA existed....

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle... As Prag mentioned he does not drink or "fiddle with his damn gun either". THAT is most likely the real reason-sober or not- that the gun went off. Modern pistols with drop safeties only go off ONE way and that is for the trigger to be pressed. I would be interested to see exactly WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED to cause this. Needless (and careless) handling of the gun caused by poor carry methods tend to lead tho this sort of thing more times than not. The odds are OVERWHELMING that he did not pull the gun out and intentionally discharge it, It was most likely an accident caused by unsafe carry methods. My guess (and I could be wrong) is that he probably was either carrying without a holster (anyone remember Plaxico Burress shooting himself when his pistol fell down the inside of his pants leg after being "Mexican carried" in his waistband?) or was carrying with a crappy holster and the gun came dislodged somehow. He probably was trying to readjust it and got trigger either wrapped up with finger or clothing and gun then predictably fires. THAT is how they are designed to work. Pull the trigger..... get loud noise. Now before anyone says "yeah but.... he shouldn't have been drinking" that does NOT change the veracity of my point in the least. If he were .10 BAC but not TOUCHING THE GUN it would not go off. Guns do not go off on their own in the presence of alcohol....someone has to be handling the gun and there is no reason to do that in a restaurant ...unless it is no longer secure.... Right now as I sit here sober as a teetotaler typing this the ONLY way my gun in its holster can possibly go off is for me to pull it out of the holster far enough to manipulate the trigger. Alcohol is largely irrelevant if the gun is not handled.....the CARELESS HANDLING caused the discharge...not the presence of alcohol. It may have contributed to the careless handling but alcohol was not the CAUSE of the discharge. So what do we learn from this? Carry it in a REAL professionally designed big boy holster not some cheap garbage that does not prevent the trigger from being manipulated or just stuffed in a pocket or a waistband. Stone cold sober or not there is no reason to carelessly handle the gun in a restaurant . If you are having to handle it because you refuse to buy a real holster and it has come loose from where you are carrying it then stuff like this happens.

REMINDER !!!! THIS IS COMING UP TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone ever wonder if there is a REASON California is always burning?........Old Testament anyone?

Fruit Cake Grade Weapons....

Christmas goodies from One Source Tactical package arrived !

And something about a week more recent.... The old Air Marshal Qualification run at the early November Regional Training Day. I don't usually shoot the drills but this time I did. The totals are not totaled out in the final column but I passed with a 145/150 and one of the guys did the math and said I used about 78% of the available time (for whatever that is worth).

Proof of some range activity..... My Certificate and Turbo Pin #8

Yes several episodes where they had some kind of "manhunt" going on they would take long guns and the episode where they were supposed to have a gold shipment in an armored car Barney had a Thompson SMG. I assume there was more than 1 bullet in it....

Ok so the NEXT one is the Christmas Training Day on DEC 1 . SATURDAY DECEMBER 1 TN / GA / AL Training Group Christmas Extravaganza ! Subject: Shooting Shooting Shooting!!! All the drills we can fit in! On Saturday Dec 1 we will hold our Christmas meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group! Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: The usual place- Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 County Rd 332 Pisgah AL 35765 (NORMAL LOCATION) Time: 9AM CENTRAL time - 3PM CENTRAL time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 250 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. We will shoot several challenging drills ( Air Marshal Qualification, John Wick Drill, Gabe White Standards, and a deviously designed Man on Man Shootoff ) and test our skills with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. This one will be structured a little different than normal. We usually spend the morning working technique and skills and then shoot in the afternoon. NOT this time. This will be a full day of shooting so we can get all the drills in! We will also be handing out some Christmas prizes straight from Suarez HQ! Looking forward to seeing you there!

Thanksgiving Training Day coming up TOMORROW!!!!! See you in Dalton!

It would be so much easier if we simply had something in TN state law similar to Pennsylvania (OK this may be the ONLY time I'll ever utter those words...) where you can carry while drinking as long as you are below the legal limit to drive. And still somehow they don't have wild drunken gunfights in bars in Pennsylvania. One would think that if the Pennsylvania Quakers can get on board with that then surely the bible belt Baptists can get on board with something like it. (Full disclosure....I'm arguably a closet Baptist attending a Methodist church)

The Dalton Ga “Thanksgiving “ training day is coming up NEXT weekend Saturday Nov 17th. The Pisgah AL “Christmas “ training day is Saturday Dec 1. Hope to see you there!!!!!

Thanks man ...and as one of my "peeps" a big congrats to you too Sir. I'm just sorry I didn't get an opportunity to snipe a wasp or a bumblebee for you....

THANKSGIVING AND CHRISTMAS TRAINING DAYS These are intended for Suarez Alumni primarily but ANYONE can come. So come on out and get some high quality yet ridiculously low priced training and meet some fellow shooters! TN / GA / AL Training Group THANKSGIVING On Saturday November 17 we will hold our "Thanksgiving" meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group for 2018! Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: Hiwassee Land Company Lake in Rocky Face GA . NEW LOCATION!!!!! Contact me for directions!!!!!!! Time: 9AM EASTERN time - 3PM EASTERN time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 250 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. We will work on smoothing out our pistol skills and will shoot several new challenging drills that we have not done before and work to be more competent and confident with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. The pistol is far more likely to be the weapon you will have in hand be it robbery, terrorism or whatever. This will give participants a chance to shoot some timed and scored drills and get a feel for where their skill level is and see where they can improve . Then on SATURDAY DECEMBER 1 TN / GA / AL Training Group Christmas Extravaganza ! Subject: Shooting Shooting Shooting!!! All the drills we can fit in! On Saturday Dec 1 we will hold our Christmas meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group! Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: The usual place- Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 County Rd 332 Pisgah AL 35765 (NORMAL LOCATION) Time: 9AM CENTRAL time - 3PM CENTRAL time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 250 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. We will shoot several challenging drills ( Air Marshal Qualification, John Wick Drill, Gabe White Standards, and a deviously designed Man on Man Shootoff ) and test our skills with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. This one will be structured a little different than normal. We usually spend the morning working technique and skills and then shoot in the afternoon. NOT this time. This will be a full day of shooting so we can get all the drills in! We will also be handing out some Christmas prizes straight from Suarez HQ! Looking forward to seeing you there!

A big congrats to all who came out ! I'm especially proud of all you guys who passed the old Air Marshal Qualification. That is not easy by any means and there is a reason that they dropped that one and went to the easier one...too many applicants couldn't pass it! I've never had THAT MANY guys pass it at once. I'm super proud of the progress we are making with the training group !