DaveTN

Sec. 26. That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defense; but the legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime. That is hardly a “Right to bear arms”

Man you guys don’t know how good you have it. I’m from Illinois where you can’t carry a firearm or have one in your car period. Yet you are prepared to put carry permits in jeopardy by pushing this liquor thing… you will never get the nod to carry in a bar.... in my opinion. I want to bring this up one more time…. Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right; like most states they see it as a protection for the state. You can argue that all you want but that is fact. You do not have a right to carry a firearm anywhere. You have the privilege of getting a permit that allows you to carry in certain places. Not a single person of this forum has a requirement to carry a firearm into an establishment that serves liquor. If you choose to do so you put the carry permits of everyone in jeopardy. And… what am I missing here? A carry permit does not require that the firearm be concealed; that has been specifically addressed by the state attorney general. It may be stupid; but it’s not illegal.

I think that everything in life is application driven and that quality Tupperware compacts cannot be compared to quality revolvers. You shouldn’t even be using sights with a compact so as long as the rounds are where they should be in a human size target that’s all that counts isn’t it? Isn’t a Glock 31 full size? I own an M&P and really like it; but keep in mind you are comparing bottom feeders. These Compact plastic guns are sold on price; not on accuracy. I don’t think any of them are anything more than a belly gun. But that's just me.

That’s exactly what I was thinking as I read this thread.

Okay.... The obvious is that if they were "reasoning, logical and right-thinking" you wouldn't need to explain it to them. The other obvious thing is that you need to be sending emails and letters to legislators and college officials; on-line petitions serve no purpose.

Just like with Florida’s legislation you will have people running around yelling that you can’t be sued if you are justified in a shooting. Nothing could be farther from the truth. All this legislation does is allow you a possible avenue for recovering legal fees if a civil court finds that you were justified in the shooting. There are some problems with this. 1. Most good shootings never go to criminal court. The fact that you were not charged criminally in a shooting does not mean that you were justified; you can certainly be devastated in a civil trial. 2. If a dirt bag or his family sues you, you still have to pay a lawyer to handle your case. You may win your case and the Judge may award you a judgment for your costs. But as anyone that is familiar with civil courts can tell you winning a judgment and you getting paid are two tally different things. Wanting this to be legislation that blocks unjustified civil action (as we all do) does not make it fact. I can see where this may be a step in the right direction, but is really nothing to get excited about. Legislation with some teeth would be that you could recover costs from the attorney that filed the case and not just the dirt bags that don’t have anything anyway. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. I also did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but this is just how I see it.

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In most cases companies not wanting guns on their property is not a “gun issue†it is a liability issue. I feel the same way about that as I do about businesses posting that they do not allow firearms on their property…. In a shooting the lawyers will go after the “deep pocketsâ€. It does not matter to them who is at fault; their only concern is who is capable of giving them a payday. If you work for General Motors and accidentally cripple your friend with a ND while showing him your new carry gun in the parking lot; an attorney will know that he can’t get much out of you even if he gets a judgment. But he may be able to get something out of GM. Same thing if you shoot a bad guy and one of your rounds go astray in a business and kills an innocent bystander… sure your done financially but that doesn’t mean much to the attorney; he needs a judgment against the business to get a payday. This is not a 2nd amendment issue or even a Constitutional one. The state of Tennessee (as most states) recognizes the 2nd amendment as a protection for the state; not as a right of the individual. Since carrying a firearm onto your company’s parking lot is not a right; it would require legislation to to keep them from banning you from doing so. I think that legislation might not be hard to get through if it included language that insulated the company or business from civil action; without that protection I don’t think it would ever happen. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the laws that ban you from carrying where liquor is served. Transporting your firearm in your vehicle onto a company parking lot is required if you want to be protected to and from work. Making an argument for illegally carrying a firearm into a restaurant that serves liquor; makes no sense. By doing that you are putting everyone’s carry permits in danger. There are obvious reasons for not allowing carry in establishments that serve liquor just as there are obvious reason for your carry permit not be valid when you are drunk. In my opinion trying to add the restaurant/Liquor issue to any “business/private property/employee parking possession†legislation would insure certain defeat of some good legislation.

The only opinion you really care about is that of the responding Police Officers. Call or go to the agency that would send Officers to respond if someone called in on you. They can answer your questions whether it is firearms or noise laws.

This is a good example of how ignorant Judges and lawyers can be and how out of control the legal system is. I’m sure the Chung’s don’t have $54M, aren’t insured for that, and a court would never award that much; so that number is meaningless. This should have gone something like this… 1. Suit filed. 2. Case heard. 3. Judgment made. 4. Done deal. If there is any good in this… it is that this kind of case should insure that this Judge will never be elected to office. Although I know he won’t be; he should be disbarred.

If I’m reading the story correctly surrendering his guns is a condition of bail. If he doesn’t want to do that he doesn’t have to; he can refuse and the Judge can revoke his bail and have him jailed.

The only .38/200’s I have seen were LRN; a pretty dismal defensive round by today’s standards. I own and shoot a lot of wheel guns but I use WWB for the range and Federal Hydra-shoks for defensive rounds.

Many leather companies offer soft suede linings. If you carry a Tupperware or a stainless gun you wouldn’t need it, but if you carry something with a high quality blue job; it’s something you might want to consider.

Sue the cop, sue the Police department, sue the state and anyone else you want to name; a civil rights violation does not justify the use of deadly force. But when as a cop, I have a weapon pointed at you and I am ordering you to surrender your weapon; we are not going to have a dialog about why. We are not going to hold a hearing to decide if there is probable cause. You have no idea why I am disarming you. I may be responding to an armed robbery and you match the description of the suspect. You may be totally innocent… but if you do not submit to my demands and it escalates to a deadly force situation; if you die because I think you were going for your weapon, I am okay, if I die because you don’t think I had a right to disarm you and you open fire on me, you will die in prison as a cop killer. Submit…. Let the cops check you out and everything is fine. The cop goes his way and you can make a bee like to your attorney; no harm no foul.

I think you will be happy with the M&P compact. I have the full size .40 and will be adding the .40 Compact. I just can’t decide if I want it or the M&P .45acp first. I wouldn’t trade a 1911SC for one though.

Can you not understand what you are posting? Give me an example of where you think the courts will give you a pass on killing a cop doing his job. We were talking about you refusing to surrender your weapon. You posed a question about someone having a gun pointed at them by a cop until be determines what their intensions are. You then posted the question “Is it legal to resist a civil rights violation?" I stand by answer…. A cop can disarm you at his discretion, doing so is not a civil rights violation, and even if it was you do not have a right to answer with deadly force. Sorry man, but I’m a former cop and I find the fact that you think its okay to kill a cop because you are clueless about the law appalling.

This guy is in good shape because a "reasonable person" would believe that he was in danger of death or great bodily harm. Castle Doctrine doesn’t give him a green light for a shoot. Intent comes into play. If a friend of yours is drunk and barges into your home after you open the door his intent is not clear and you don’t get to kill him.

You have recourse if you feel that a Police Officer is abusing his power. Deadly force is not part of that recourse.

I am going to ask them what weapons they want and I will turn them over. What else can I do, get in an armed encounter with the cops? I will only end up dead or in prison. You are asking about something that is not going to happen. Why are you trying to make cops the enemy? If a cop is committing a criminal act; one that a jury would consider to be a criminal act, not you deciding that you think your rights are being violated; you do what you have to do. You are asking me what someone should do if they are having an armed robbery committed against them? The way you are presenting this scenario the guy had no chance. He was dead whether it was a cop or a thug. Life isn’t always fair and the good guys don’t always win. My point is that if you attended a carry class you should know the answer to very, very basic legal questions about carrying a firearm.

Name one. Name one case where a Judge or jury ruled that a person was okay in resisting arrest by a sworn Police Officer on duty. You can make all the arguments that you want about what you would do. I’m trying to make it clear to those people (especially the young ones) that you absolutely do not have a right to resist arrest even if you believe the arrest to be improper. Refusing to surrender your weapon to a Police Officer engaged in his duties is a criminal act. You will be arrested, convicted (probably of a felony, depending on what your resisting involves), and spend large amounts on an attorney. It’s not about your rights; it’s about whether or not you are a criminal. There is no “sticky part†that is why the law is very clear on the point that you do not have a right to resist arrest arrest. I have seen people go to prison for resisting arrest and felony battery on a Police Officer that were not convicted of the crime they were being arrested for. Once you decided that you are not going to comply, or you are going to resist arrest, weather or not you did what you are being accused of does not matter. And I am responding because I hate to see innocent people go to jail because they believed something they read on an internet forum. Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right. They recognize your permit as a privilege they have given you and they can revoke it at any time. You do not have a right to argue with or physically resist an arrest.

Not only Police Officers are required to know the law, if you are a carry permit holder you should not “be under the impressionâ€; you should know... correct? I have not been able to pose these questions to Police Officers to see if they know the answers or not. But I have ask many carry permit holders and some “firearm instructors†the responses have been pretty comical. 1. Is a Tennessee carry permit holder allowed to carry his weapon in the open? 2. Is a carry permit holder required to inform a Police Officer on a vehicle traffic stop if he is armed? 3. Does a carry permit holder have a right to refuse to surrender his weapon when ordered to do so by a Police Officer? 4. Does a business owner have the right to post his property as a gun free zone? 5. Is a carry permit holder required to comply with that posting? 6. Does the state of Tennessee recognize the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution as an individual right? I’m not interested in what a tax or divorce attorney thinks the law is; I’m looking for clear answers. These should be very simple questions to answer. (Well, okay maybe I just threw that last one in there for fun but the rest should be easy.)

I need a million bucks. Are you in?

Well from what I can tell you own a gun store and I don’t. So this is all nothing more than a wild azz dream of what I think would be a good business. I am fully aware that the investment costs would be high and I assume the liability and zoning would require a lot of jumping through hoops. This would be no Mom & Pop operation; Mom & Pop don’t have this kind of investment capitol. But I think something must be wrong when I can’t get anywhere close to the price of Buds Guns in Kentucky at any of my local dealers even after you figure in transfer costs. If I had the money to buy the kind of inventory that was required, why would my customers want to buy from them? If I had the capitol to get the same discounts they do and passed them along to my customers the firearms would not have to cross state lines and I should be able to get the Lions share of the gun purchases in Middle Tennessee. 75 cents over Wal-Mart?; are you kidding me?? The last .45ACP I bought at Wal-Mart was 100 round box of WWB 230 FMJ for $20.98. Can you come within 75 cents of that? I can’t even order on-line 1 or 2K rounds at a time and beat that price. I walk into my local gun store and there are more people behind the counter than on my side of the counter and the range. I can do math, but I don’t know what the numbers are. Tell me how many gun sales take place in Middle Tennessee a year and I will know how much money there is to be made. My winning personality and fair pricing will get me 60% of that number. 20% will have a local dealer they want to deal with and 20% have become accustom to being treated badly while shopping and don’t care where they buy.

I have been there, but never bought anything from them; what did they do you didn’t like? I have bought about 10 firearms in last couple of years and the Franklin Gun Shop and Mike’s Saddle Shop was the only two that acted like they wanted my business. Everywhere else I have been they either acted like they could care less or made me laugh when they gave me a price. There must be something I am missing because I think opening a gun store/range would be a great opportunity in this area.

1. A Pancake is generally an OWB holster not an IWB. 2. Depends on your personal preference and experience. I wouldn’t carry without a thumb break. But it is for the same reason I want a magazine disconnect; I have seen good guys and bad guys of all experience levels lose control of a weapon on the street.