DaveTN

Tell that to the next POTUS. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318

I haven’t filled out a Police report in a long time, but I would be willing to bet that there is not a box to check if either party had a carry permit and if it was concealed or open. <O:p</O:p Common sense and training will tell you if open carry puts you at a tactical disadvantage. Would it be more than pure speculation if every firearms trainer you knew said it’s bad tactically? Do you know a single firearms trainer that advocates open carry at the mall? </O:p

What happened when you went and talked to him?

So what do you guys think…. Should I get a .45ACP or a 9MM?

God But if you don’t believe in God or you need to see it written down and recognized by the government you can read it here…

I agree. I have said here many times that I believe I have a right to bear arms; but I have also said that it doesn’t come form the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment. <O:p</O:p If you feel that you have a right to bear arms, or if you feel that you should have a right to bear arms; then say so. But don’t hang those rights on a dog like the second amendment; the anti-gun lobby will slap you down as soon as the words pass your lips. <O:p</O:p We have a right to protect ourselves from thugs that are trying to kill us. The government needs to recognize that regardless of what the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment says; don’t make it a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment issue…. You will lose.

Mark, The Brady bunch has nothing to do with this; no one cares what their opinions are on the Constitution. The view that the framers wanted to protect the militia is not an unusual view; it is the view and the written opinion of almost every Federal District Court. It is the law of the land that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right; it protects the states from the Federal government disarming Police Departments and State National Guard and reserve units. (Like in England) There is only one stop left for this “individual right†argument and that is the Supreme Court of the United States. They have chosen not to hear cases on this and are leaving it up to the Federal Districts. But pressure is being put on them to make a ruling. They can only rule in one of three ways. One ruling would open the door for states like Illinois, California and New York to ban guns period. One ruling would be a violation of States Rights and simply be rejected by the states, and one ruling would mean that nothing changes. I see no chance here of a good outcome for gun owners. If the framers of the Constitution wanted to guarantee that you could walk around carrying a gun don’t you think they would have said that? The second amendment as it is….. The 2nd amendment as we all want it to be…. You can’t remove “A well regulated Militia†from the 2nd anymore than you can remove the word “Unreasonable†from the 4th amendment to get it to read the way most people want.

<O:p</O:p I don’t have a problem with the legality of open carry. It is legal according to the state Attorney Generals opinion. My own personal opinion on it (Which means nothing) is that it was not specifically addressed in the law to protect those that carry concealed from being arrested if their weapons were accidentally exposed. If this becomes an issue I doubt that the results will be good. In Kansas open carry is legal, but cities can ban it by city ordnance. It is my understanding exposing a concealed weapon in Wichita carries a $2500 fine and loss of the weapon. (I don’t know that to be fact, I read it on the internet) What stops Metro from banning open carry or making laws that would cause you to be arrested if your concealed weapon was exposed? Maybe it is because I was under Illinois law for so long, maybe it is because I’m a realist, but I don’t see the benefit of making it an issue. Poking a dog with a stick can certainly be fun on an internet forum, but in real life it may not be such a good idea. With that said this may be a non-issue. I have been in Tennessee for 10 years and I have only seen someone carrying openly one time and he was an off duty cop. <O:p</O:p

I agree. I don’t see stores that post signs as being against guns or permit holders, unless I know that to be the case. In my opinion civil liability is the problem. The law needs to remove the liability of a business owner and put it squarely on the shoulders of the shooter or the bad guy, where it belongs. But of course the lawyers will never allow that to happen because they can’t get as big a payday from a dirt bag or a permit holder as they can from a business.

If they do; you have recourse. Exactly.

My point was that a cop can’t violate a right you do not have. He didn’t say he would make something up, read it again. He was giving the guy examples of other violation he believed he could arrested the guy for. But I didn’t see a video tape or hear the Officers side of this; is it posted somewhere? I’m not saying that this Officer did anything right; his own Chief admitted he was wrong. But if there is a video and he gave a statement that is different than what is on that video; they have grounds to fire him. <O:p</O:p

I got yelled at on a range in California for “shooting too fastâ€.

Certainly it isn’t a right; almost every court in the land has ruled that way. You and I both are absolutely positive that we do not have a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment right. Sometime when I feel like typing a whole bunch I’ll post up my story. It was a blatant violation of law by a criminal Police Officer. I had a lot more to be pizzed off about than you, but you notice I have not turned my back on Cops. One man caused me all my grief and he was eventually arrested and fired (had nothing to do with my case). Getting stopped and checked (or slammed into the wall, if you need the drama) is not limited to guns. It happens to people everyday. If you asked 100 people that it has happened to (where it was justified) I would bet that most of them will feel that some right has been violated and they think the cop should be fired. <O:p</O:p You have recourse. But if you don’t know the law or understand your rights don’t be surprised when you are left with nothing but a big attorney bill. This doesn’t happen to most citizens and when it does it can be a traumatic experience for them. The fact that they are upset and pizzed off doesn’t mean the cops did anything wrong. <O:p</O:p Okay… we have already agreed that you do not have a right to bear arms. You have a privilege to carry a handgun under <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State> law. Your state doesn’t even recognize it as a right, so how can you expect a cop to. Your privilege doesn't mean that a Police Officer has to put his life in danger (whether that danger is real or perceived). If I was dispatched to a problem or I roll up on a scene and I see guns…. Gun control immediately goes into effect. If I felt the need I would seize your weapon until I find out what is going on. It has nothing to do with whether the cop is pro-gun or anti-gun. I don’t see how any reasonable person could expect anything less. That would be a safe bet. Being a white male is no big right. You don’t even get to claim they are picking on you because you are ______. (Fill in the blank with whatever.) </O:p

If it could be proven he should be fired. <O:p</O:p The problem here is that we only have one side of the story. In reading the story this guy told I think he is creditable (Unlike the Virginia story). But to take anyone’s job away; whether it is a cop or a citizen I would require the same level of proof that would be required for a conviction in a court of law. If Internal Affairs or a Command Officer feels a crime has been committed… arrest him and give him his day in court. If he is found not guilty he goes back to work with back pay; if gulity, he's fired.

My opinion (and that is all it is) as a former Police Officer is that you do not need to offer to surrender your weapon. But if you have contact with a Police Officer that does not know you are armed, and you are doing something that will expose your weapon; you should calmly tell him that you have a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>HCP</st1:stockticker> and you are armed. After you tell him that; do whatever he says. <O:p</O:p After he finishes his investigation (or whatever he is doing) if you think he did something wrong you can call the Police Department and request that they send a Command Officer to your location right then. <O:p</O:p Getting in a pizzing match on the street with a cop over laws will rarely end well for you. Putting the Officer at ease is not important. Having a Police Officer suddenly realize that someone is reaching in the vicinity of a firearm that he did not know was there is. This guy did the right thing; he complied and then dealt with it later. The Chief admitted that the Officer was wrong and took action. I can assure you that when a Police Chief has to make a public apology for the conduct of an Officer; that Officers career is impacted.

Is Joe back yet?

If I were stopping someone for a minor traffic offense and I saw a rifle case in the back seat I would not ask to see it unless it was a slow night and I might ask if you had anything cool in there I might like to see. You might have your Garand with you. I feel the same way about people that are legally carrying handguns. It wasn’t legal in the state where I was a cop, but if I were a cop here I wouldn’t expect someone to tell me they were carrying (because as I understand the law here that is not required) unless I ask them to get out of the car or make some other move that would expose the weapon. (If someone is going to try to shoot me they aren’t going to tell me they are armed.) But if I had a feeling something is up, a rifle case in plain view gives me PC to inspect it. If there is a violation with it; I now have a free pass to the rest of the vehicle.

I don’t know, are you saying that the dollar amount in the pension fund is based on the number of tickets written? I know a Florida Trooper I’ll ask him. Putting Traffic Officers in fully equipped squad cars is a big cost; you would rather have than cost added to your property taxes instead of letting the offenders pay it? Now keep in mind, I’m talking about the normal traffic patrol functions of a normal Police department; not the wild azz stories about some small town speed trap that is supporting their city with traffic tickets. I rarely see Murfreesboro cops or Rutherford County Deputies running radar or making traffic stops. Absolutely! How about we reduce the size of government in general. Manufacturing is leaving at an alarming rate; jobs are cut and wages are being reduced. Is the size or budgets of government being reduced…. No. The more our economy weakens and the more jobs we lose, the more Police Officers we will need. Any way they can find to not put that burden on the taxpayer is okay with me. Raise speeding tickets to $1000… I don’t care.

I don’t think that was the case here, but on calls like domestic violence or calls to stop a vehicle were someone has said the subject is armed or has threatened to use a gun; you bet fear and adrenalin has an impact on decisions. When I went on those types of calls there was no discussion about what was going on until I located and secured the weapon. That’s not overreaction; that’s just training and common sense. <O:p</O:p Cops are human and they make mistakes.

Oh...I’m not denying there are quotas. It really seems to upset some people that a department would admit to it, but the Command Officers at the department I worked at never denied it. 100 tickets a month for a traffic car and 10 tickets a month for a district car. I worked as a traffic Officer for two years and then trained other Officers for a year before I had enough seniority to get in a district car. I have been in shootings and don’t have nightmares from those, but I still do have from working traffic. I can assure you that you are in more danger from a traffic offender than you are from a “real†criminal.

If you were walking around with a SAW who would question you? I'll try to pay better attention next time. It doesn’t appear to me that you can if the barrel is over 12â€.

Your Police Chief or Sheriff is charged not only with keeping the citizens safe from criminals, but also keeping the streets safe for motorists. You need to look at who kills and injures more people in you community; criminals or traffic offenders. You then need to see how the CLEO allocates his manpower. Then you can go in and have an informed conversation with him. Cops don’t make any money off tickets (except those that rack up the court overtime) it goes to the city, county and state governments. If you cut the number of tickets that are written do you think the government will cut its budget? No… property taxes will be increased if that happened. I’m good with the traffic offenders paying that part of the bill; I don’t want it tacked onto my property taxes.

So.....you guys are thinking a AOW or SBR with a barrel shorter than 12" would be okay under Tennessee law for a HCP?

I’ll take a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>WAG</st1:stockticker> and say no. Because if it were discrimination someone would have went for the really “Deep Pocketsâ€â€¦ eBay.

1. Being arrested even if you are innocent is expensive. 2. A “valid defense†is expensive even if you can prove it. 3. “Probable cause for a vehicle search†is a 12 lane interstate a thousand miles long. It almost always exists on a traffic stop. 4. Even if you can get the search thrown out; it’s expensive. 5. Being educated on criminal law and search and seizure while you are standing in front of a Judge is …. You guessed it…expensive. 5. A carry permit costs $250. Gum money compared to what you would spend on a legal defense. You also need a legal explanation of how the situation of a pick-up truck not having a trunk to secure the weapons is handled. If I drove a pick-up I would call and talk to someone in your county’s States Attorneys office and see what they say; since their opinion is the only one that matters. (Other than the cop that stops you.)