DaveTN

Of course it’s a valid Constitutional right; according to the courts it’s not an individual right. You aren’t suggesting that having a carry permit gives him some right that a non-carry permit holder doesn’t have are you? If you are stopped by the Police and arrested for no crime other than carrying a firearm, I would say that carrying a firearm is a right that you do not have. Would you agree? </O:p

You and I have never agreed on this and I doubt we ever will. There is no law in any state that requires a Police Officer to put life in danger. If a suspect is armed I was not playing 20 questions with him or being distracted by conversation until the scene is secure. I would order you to your knees with your hands on your head; if you failed to comply I would keep you at gun point until other Officers arrived; at which time you would forcibly be placed on the ground. If at any point your hands moved towards your weapon you would be shot. You or your surviving family members could line up to sue me or whoever you like. As I have explained before you have no idea why you are being stopped. You are so locked in on the idea that your carry permit gives you some special Constitutional right and that some Police Officer is so set on violating some right (that you don’t even have) that you are blinded to any facts. The AG Opinion…. (And we have pretty much determined they don’t mean much) you are quoting has to do with whether or not “passive resistance†is enough to justify a charge for resisting arrest. It that case is was specifically addressing a person that sat in a car and refused to get out. There is nothing in that opinion to even imply that the Officers can’t forcibly remove the person from the vehicle. Now please explain to me how you got from that opinion to “In TN, it is not an offense to refuse to obey a lawful order given by an officer†To even suggest that someone not comply with the orders of Police when firearms are involved is ridiculous.

I didn’t in Illinois, but those laws change all the time. Our department policy was that we could not cuff someone that was not under arrest. But that was just a department policy; not state law. It’s done all the time now for the safety of the Officer. I doubt Tennessee is any different; but I’m not sure. A good test to find out if you are under arrest is to ask "Am I free to leave?" It may not be beneficial to ask this question if the Officers are in the middle of an investigation to determine if they are going to arrest you. I guess you would have to lay out the scenario you are questing? I have seen many cases where a person’s defense to resisting arrest was that they were not told they were under arrest (it’s a pretty common defense). I have not seen one be successful, but I guess it’s worth a try. You need some Tennessee Street Cops on this forum.

For your application....+1 on the S&W steel or stainless J frames.

I have wondered about putting some of these things to a vote. I think the ban on smoking would pass. If you look at the responses on most of the forums to the smoking ban; most folks don’t seem to have a problem with trampling all over the rights of business owners when it comes to smoking. I wonder how handgun carry would do? I’m not sure we would want to find out.

Miranda has nothing to do with if you are under arrest or not; you do not have to be advised of your Miranda rights. Although they usually do tell you when you are under arrest; there is sometime no time to do so and there is no requirement to do so. If I was called to a scene and I saw someone armed there would be no discussions about anything until that person complied with my orders to disarm.

I didn't see this here yet so....

Being patted down and disarmed for the safety of the Officer is always okay. Being handcuffed without being arrested is also routinely done anymore. Who was wrestled to the ground and held for a "great length" of time?

Welcome. There are several other former Illinois residents on this forum. Things are a lot better here for firearm owners.

Is violating the carry/alcohol/restaurant law a felony? Tennessee (and other states) just saw fit to trample all over the obvious rights of restaurant and bars owners in favor of the perceived rights of non-smokers. You think they are going to waiver on something that is no more than a privilege? Are there any states that allow carry in bars? I know AZ tried and failed and even Alaska does not allow it. Could a decision like that effect reciprocity agreements with other states?

Amen. I also believe that those that fly a flag of another county over the American flag are not doing so to honor their flag, but are doing so to show their disrespect for the American people and their flag. They should be arrested and if found to be illegal; returned to where they came from.

Most people don’t think of that. If you have had a clean shoot, your attorney probably would not have you invoke Miranda. Doing so could cause you a lot of grief and expense. When in doubt you need to be able to make a call right then and get an answer. I’m not saying you should necessarily make a statement; I’m saying that invoking Miranda has consequences.

I’m not arguing, but can you offer some proof of that? If it is the ultimate and final word, LEO’s would not make an arrest, Prosecutors would not file a case, and if they did the Judge would dismiss it without a trial. A lawyer sent me a link to the description from the Texas AG website. Obviously in Texas it is not the ultimate or final anything. Is Tennessee different?

I don’t have any problem with permits. I have a problem with trying to tie them to the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or any other right. A permit has nothing to do with whether or not you can own firearms or what you do with them on your own property. Almost all of the Federal courts have ruled that the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> is not an individual right. The ruling you are posting about is 6 years old. How has that worked for the people of the 5<SUP>th</SUP>? Do they still need a permit to bear arms? I’m not an anti, but I am crystal clear that the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> is not an individual right. I was arrested and jailed for no crime other than having a loaded gun in my car in a state that does not even have permits. I tried to argue the second and was immediately shot down because of the rulings of the 7<SUP>th</SUP>. Does understanding the court rulings and how they will be applied make me an anti, stupid or ignorant? No one in Tennessee is trying to as long as you are on your property. But our gun owning brothers in Chicago can’t own handguns. If a right is recognized it is recognized for everyone in the country; otherwise it is not a right.

Lets review.... The cause: 1. Availability of guns. 2. Old guys working as guards. The fix: 1. Outlaw guns. 2. Hire twenty something year old Internet warriors that have spent eight hours smokin’ and jokin’ at the range that will work for $10 an hour. Makes perfect sense to me.

It’s moot. You won’t win that argument. Strap on a firearm and walk down the street. Unless you have purchased the privilege from your state you will be arrested. <O:p</O:p If you can be arrested for the simple act of bearing arms…. You do not have that right.

In you are going into Illinois, yes. You should also take the case for your handgun. http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearms.cfm The text of the law.... http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+24&ActID=1876&ChapAct=720%A0ILCS%A05%2F&ChapterID=53&ChapterName=CRIMINAL+OFFENSES&SectionID=60752&SeqStart=50300000&SeqEnd=53000000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961%2E

You would want to talk to someone with the agency that would likely be stopping you. That would be the City Police or the CountySheriff’s office of where you do most of your shopping. That will give you an idea if you will be arrested if stopped. If there seems to be any confusion I would then call the States Attorney’s office for that county. While they won’t be able to tell you 100% if you will be arrested or not; they can tell you if you would be prosecuted. I had always thought Alabama had reciprocity with us; guess not. This looks like a roll of the dice.

Holly crap man… killing an innocent bystander is quite a leap from giving a warning on a speeding ticket. Is there some kind of comparison here? <O:p</O:p

I use to have military guys hand me their ID card with their driver’s license. If it was a minor traffic offense I let them go because they were serving their county. <O:p</O:p A local liquor store would detain and call the police on any minor that tried to purchase alcohol. (That is a criminal misdemeanor in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>Illinois</st1:State>). I was detailed to that store and they had a 20 year old in custody. They said that their store policy was to press charges against anyone underage attempting to purchase and they wanted him arrested. <O:p</O:p The long hair freak behind the counter said the guy tried to use a military ID and that didn’t mean chit to him. <O:p</O:p The guy was 20 years old, had done 2 years active duty in the Army, and was in the reserves. I took him outside, explained to him just the act of attempting to purchase was a crime. I told him to consider this a warning and let him go. (I would have given him a ride home if he had been in the Navy or Marines.) <O:p</O:p Does giving the military a break knock me down even lower of the Professional scale? Or is okay because they aren’t cops?

You are correct it is not “professional courtesyâ€. Criminal behavior?? Keep in mind that we are talking here about a cop not writing another cop on a minor traffic violation. You want to make him a criminal for that but still have the discretion to let you go? <O:p</O:p

That is how it should be. But a few states stand in the way; mainly Illinois. They don’t let their own citizens carry; they aren’t going to let you. Personally I think Illinois could get a carry law passed if they could keep the 2nd amendment folks out of the way. California would be tough but they do have a carry law (Even tough most residents say they can’t get a permit.) Of course maybe a national carry permit is unrealistic. Look at how long the transportation industry has wanted a national vehicle code. That hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will anytime soon.

Not only the best small civilian carry, but the best off duty LEO carry. My model 36 is the only gun that I have not traded off; I’ve had it 29 years. I even carried it on-duty as a back-up.

I went. The turnout looked pretty good and there were a lot of vendors. It was hot in that building. I went with a list of stuff to buy but I couldn’t find any deals on anything I needed. I couldn’t even find any deals on stuff I didn’t need. Guess I’ll be placing a MidWayUSA order today.

What do you want to hear man? Have you not read what I have posted? Do you want to hear me say that I would treat someone that is as close to me as my brother the same way I would treat you? Do you want to hear me say that I would stick it to him over a minor traffic ticket? Let me repeat this one more time….. Not in this lifetime. I thoroughly understand that does not set well with you. If you want to questions my morals or Professional standards, if you think this makes me a criminal or the next logical step for a cop that would do this is manufacturing evidence or lying in court; so be it. Maybe I’m slow and I’m not getting your point… what is it? Same discretion for everyone? Fill me in on how that would work. <O:p</O:p