DaveTN

Did he autograph it?

There is not a lot of information about what happened in that case. But I don’t think the fact that he had a HCP had much to do with charges being filed. This was a continuation of a bar fight. And I would guess (and it’s only a guess) for that reason that if the guy that got shot would have died this would be going to a jury. The guy was on the ground and being choked. Apparently the DA felt that he was unable to get out of that situation and was justified in using deadly force.

Depends on what you are going to do with it. If you are going to shoot paper I wouldn’t want the additional ammo cost of the 17HMR. Especially if you own a center fire.

Everyone should be aware of cases like that. The “chance†of getting your azz kicked does not justify deadly force against an unarmed assailant. I can get over an azz kicking.

I agree. It won’t matter in a criminal case. I don’t think anyone can post any examples of where a person was on trial in criminal court because of the weapon or the ammunition they used. They had bigger problems that that or they would not have been at trial. Now… in a civil case everything matters. Your weapon, your ammunition, your training, your intent, your other options; they will all be questioned. And if you have shot someone that the jury decides didn’t need shooting; you are screwed. They can’t put you in jail, so they will destroy you financially. I truly don’t think (from what I see posted on some of the forums) that a lot of people think about that.

I thought I saw somewhere that Kim Ahrends was possibly going to make some Ruger grips. Might be worth an email. http://ahrendsgripsusa.com/

That was the case of Harold Fish. He shot an unarmed man to death on a hiking trail. The jury convicted him of second degree murder. They believed that he overreacted and the use of deadly force was not justified. Sure they made comments on the fact that he used hollow point ammunition, that he shot the victim three times and that he used a 10mm. But from reading the rest of the information I doubt the outcome would have been much different if he shot the guy with .380 wad cutters. It had bigger hurdles that his attorney obviously didn’t get him over. Here’s the whole story if anyone wants to read it. No matter what you think the outcome should have been there is some good information in it. His case also helped change the law in Arizona on whom the burden of proof is on in a deadly force case. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/

So you think the professional trainers that are training the Police Officers in Tennessee aren’t doing their job?

Most of the people that have concerns about the safety of a Glock have told you that they don’t hate Glocks. Before I made by decision about Glocks (many years ago) I spent hours doing the research, reading the reports of people that said they had Glocks discharge without pulling the trigger or had their Glocks blow up in their hands. I found some of these reports to be creditable. Enough to make me not want to take the risk of having them around my family. Could I prove any this? I don’t have any desire to. No one is going to take you by the hand and lead you to the thousands of stories and articles that have been written on this. I’m not going to waste my time posting information that those that care already know and those that don’t need to read and make up their own mind. Is a Glock a POS? Is a 9mm as good a round as a .45ACP for ending a threat? Is a shotgun the best weapon for home defense? Are all handguns copied from a 1911? Are 10mm shooters really just a cult? Do I really have any 2nd amendment rights? Do cops need a warrant to search my house? Why are cops as a group not trained as well as all of us? Why can’t I carry a gun in a bar? We could (and have) filled pages with questions like those. Those topics are interesting, informative, and always entertaining. But if you truly want to find the answers to those questions you need to do your own research.

Also, as I read it you can’t have ammo in the vicinity of the person or the weapon.

Sorry, you didn’t have good training where you were and were afraid you were going to shoot some kid in the dark. Maybe you should have sought out some better training. Sure… I can tell from this thread that the Glocksters are pretty dispassionate and making a lot of sense. As I said I don’t hate Glocks; buy all you like. Like what? You mean like in an armed confrontation? I don't know what that means either.

Well since the M&P is relative new to the market and many PD's have either made the switch to it or are considering doing so; I’m sure an AD will get the attention of many people that want to find out if the weapon malfunctioned or if the operator made a mistake. But I’m positive that in the internet world there will be pro M&P users that will say that the operator must have been an idiot and needs more training. They will talk about how the M&P is the perfect weapon for everyone including LEO’s and they will continually post that they do not understand how a mechanical device could have failed.

You are confused. I’m the one saying that if you can’t put your finger on the trigger of a handgun without fear that it will discharge…. It is not safe to be carrying as a defensive handgun. The Glocksters are the ones saying it is not safe to do that and that anyone that does it is either not properly trained or is a cowboy ninja. If the guy pointed the gun at his leg and pulled the trigger it is not the fault of the weapon or operator error. He obviously was trying to shoot his leg. If he didn’t pull the trigger and the gun discharged due to being bumped; it is the fault of the weapon. It wouldn’t happen with a 1911 unless his hand was wrapped around the grip, the thumb safety was off and he pulled the trigger. I don’t think there are many PD’s using XD’s so I doubt you will find much data on that. As far as the Sig; what does all the data you have on LEO’s tell you? I have no fear of my M&P discharging without me pulling the trigger. But then I have never had an ND or AD in my life. Are you denying that Glock had problems and recalled weapons for “upgrades� I don’t care how many Glock you own. I was just saying that if you have an AD with one you will never convince the Glockers that you are anything more than another untrained goon that doesn’t know how to use a handgun.

No records are ever totally “goneâ€. If you go back to the department that arrested you five years from now, they would likely be able to read what exactly happened in your case and pull all the reports. The Federal government is not required to honor an expungement. Some professional licenses require you do disclose arrests regardless of an expungement. If you ever applied for a job that required an extensive background check, like a cop; the arrests would show up.

I’m not a cop anymore, so I don’t use anything for a duty weapon. But I own an M&P and have owned probably every S&W and most other popular carry guns at one point or another.

That’s a pretty impressive statistic. How many people have you taken at gun point; as compared to the average cop? I mean that is what we are talking about, whether or not you have your finger on the trigger in a deadly force situation.

Most departments have excellent training. But Glocks come on the scene and all of a sudden cops are having AD/ND’s all over the place. So the obvious questions becomes… did Police Officer training all off a sudden turn to crap, or is it the weapon? Is this a problem with Sigs, M&P’s etc? Look at the obvious.

Based on what? Your vast knowledge of cops? I worked on a 215 Officer PD and we did not have a single ND or accidental shooting. I would say that is a pretty good record; would you agree?

There’s what I was waiting for. Glocks are the problem because there are so many of them and cops as a group are clueless on how to handle a firearm.

No, sorry…. carrying a weapon that he feared would put innocent bystanders in harm ways if he put his finger on the trigger would make him a fool.

And I thought I was all by myself.

I’m not talking about target shooting at the indoor range.

I’m saying that Glocks have a well documented problem with AD/ND (Whatever name you want to use) that other handguns do not have. According to the Glocksters it is operator error caused by putting your finger on the trigger of a Glock.

My guess would be that it’s just like it is in some states where there is a “Presumption†for DUI; .08, .10, whatever. You can be charged with DUI at BAC levels less than those but the state must convince a Judge or Jury you were intoxicated or impaired. It is usually used when there is an accident with serious injuries or death. I would guess it would be up to a jury. The issue of guns and alcohol is a common sense one. Is Tennessee ever going to allow carrying where liquor is served? Not a snowballs chance in … well, I just doubt it will ever happen.