DaveTN

No, I could care less what started the fight. I only care if you are a willing participant vs. being attacked. Lose the knife scenario; we agree completely on it. My understanding of what you are saying is that if you enter into a fight willingly and some point you get scared or feel that the other guy may cause you great bodily harm; you are justified in using deadly force. I disagree and think if you bring a gun into a fist fight you need to be in prison.

And I contend that it does matter how you got to that point. Not if the deadly force is your hands in a fight I signed on for.

We have agreed on that. Not if you are a willing participant. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened at the Rush. I have to assume that the shooter was attacked without provocation; otherwise the DA should have put him in front of a jury. When I read the (very short) news articles it caught my attention when I saw “continuation of a bar fight.†Obviously the DA had all the information that we do not have. So I’m curious; I would like to know what happened. If you want to believe that you can get into an argument with someone that leads to a fight; and you can enter into that fight with the idea that if you see things aren’t going the way you planned you can always just pull out your gun and kill the guy; go for it. But you might want to bounce that one off your local DA and see what he thinks about it.

What's the bullet drop for a .223 at 15 miles?

Sure. But see, you want to apply the deadly force laws with absolutely no qualifiers. It’s not cut and dried. Options, intent, state of mind, what a “reasonable person†would believe, you will be put under a microscope. Did you come into this deadly force situation with “clean hands� No.

I signed up for a fist fight. I knew full well the possible outcome and made the decision to fight you anyway. I don’t get to shoot you if I’m losing. When you pull that knife we are not in a fist fight anymore. You are threatening the use of a deadly weapon. Would I just pull out my gun and shoot you? No, because that would probably land me in front of a jury. I would retreat and pull my gun; if you continued I would shoot.

You bet.

No, because at that point he has done exactly what I am saying you can’t do. If you willingly enter into a fight it is assumed that you know the risks. You don’t get to bring a gun to a fist fight. It’s the whole “reasonable person” thing. Would a reasonable person believe that you were in danger of death or great bodily harm in a fight that you willingly entered into? Nope. If Mike Tyson with no provocation from you threatened to kick your azz and made moves as though he was going to hit you; his hands are considered deadly weapons and you would be justified in using deadly force. However… if you said “Hey there’s Mike Tyson watch this.” And then provoked him into a fight; when you started to experience the near death experience that would surly follow, you don’t get to pull a gun and shoot him. Even if he has bit your ear off.

No, those guns aren’t for target shooting they are for point instinct shooters that don’t use sights.

No it doesn’t. As I said we don’t have the facts. I assume that this guy must have attacked him without provocation. If you are a willing participant in a fight, you have put yourself in that situation knowing full well the risks.

It’s totally different if you are a willing participant in a fight. If you pull a gun and shoot the other guy when you discover you are losing; it’s murder. And most DA’s would charge accordingly.

That word “clip†is a term Glocksters use. Now that you are a 1911 owner use the proper terminology.

You have referred to “stopping power” a couple of times. If by that you mean the ability to stop a threat from an attacker; most any round will do that. If you mean stop a threat by an armed attacker only a few rounds are good at that. With all due respect you are reading about these different rounds when you should probably be letting her try different things before ruling them out. You will read on these gun forums about 9mm’s that have the “stopping power” of a .45ACP. That doesn’t make it true. Try a medium frame .38, if she can handle that try a small frame and she what thinks. If you have already tried this… disregard this post.

You left out the word “carry”, so I will assume this is a home protection gun and not a carry gun. I would recommend a 2.5” (or maybe even a 4") revolver like the S&W K-frames (Model 19, 66, etc). Good stopping power, It‘s heavy enough that it’s comfortable to shoot with .38’s, you can get pretty small grips and if you sell it off or trade you get the resale of a .357Mag.

Welcome to the club…. There’s no going back now. Winchester White Box. It’s cheap, relatively clean and I have never had a problem with it. 230 grain Federal Hydra-shok Condition 1, cocked and locked.

If the address that, they will have to say who is using those guns and who they are shooting with them. Can’t have that….

Please explain as it pertains to the 2nd amendment. 2nd amendment cases go through the courts as do all other cases. Almost every court in the land has addressed the 2nd at one point or another. “Most Americans†have no input. Most of the Judges would argue that the 2nd is alive, well, and in full force. When was the last time that you heard of a state or the Federal government trying to disarm a Police Department, Military Unit or any other well regulated Militia that is necessary to the security of a Free State?

You will never force states to allow carry. It is a state right. Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right anymore than Illinois, New York or California. A HCP is a privilege that you can purchase from the state. There are no “rights†involved and you have no right to carry.

Absolutely not. We fought a war over that.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again….. Give TOTAL immunity from civil action to business owners and most of these sign issues will be moot. <O:p</O:p That legislation may work in Arizona but it won’t fly in Tennessee. Tennessee is not going to try to bully or threaten business owners.

Those are the kinds of things you have to think about. There are scenarios that you can’t win. You comply and hope for the best. The other thing that I don’t think a lot of people think about is the fact that not all criminals are untrained idiots. You may run into an armed criminal that has skills far superior to yours. Also he doesn’t have to worry about shooting innocent bystanders or criminal and civil law.

If you interviewed 100 people that have been in a street shooting, you would probably have 100 different stories about their experiences and reactions. The thing I remember most about my first shooting was that I had no thought about the mechanics of drawing and firing my weapon; my training took over and it went exactly as practiced. My mind was racing with “I think I see a gun; do I?†And “Am I legally justified in shooting this guy?†A lot of the “practice†is mental. You have to decide beforehand what conditions would cause you to shoot. This is a personal decision and you will live (or die) with the consequences. There are many things to think about and countless scenarios you can run through in your head. I have my own personal requirements for the use of deadly force that will satisfy the legal requirements in all 50 states (as far as I know). Everyone has their own ideas about shooting at the range. I do two types of shooting; target shooting and defensive shooting. The two don’t have anything to do with each other and I don’t shoot the same for each. Know the law. When you hear about shootings get as many facts as you can and see what you think you would have done. As far as you having a shotgun stuck in your face prior to getting your carry permit…. Are you implying that now you would pull your gun? You survived didn’t you? There are few things you will do in your life that have the ability to impact it (or end it) as much as pulling a handgun.

The cause is that a crazy person decided to shoot a bunch of people. The fix? For someone with the right tools to be on the scene when he starts his attack. <O:p</O:p All guns off the street? We have been fighting the war on dope forever; how’s that worked out?

Bravo. This is exactly how it is suppose to happen when a nut case opens fire. An armed citizen was on the scene and stopped him in his tracks. I don’t care if she shot him or caused him to shoot himself; she caused it to end. It’s just too bad that four other people had to die before the shooter ran into a force that he could not overcome. She’s right…. God was on her side. If I’m reading the articles right she was one of 15 to 20 “volunteer†security guards in a church of 7000 people. That's one BIG church.

You mean as opposed to a shooting between two members in the locker room? They are scrambling to protect themselves from the civil action that could follow. Both men signed a contract that contained a “no gun†clause. I’m really curious to hear “the rest of the story†about this case. This was a continuation of a bar fight. Unless Kitts was attacked with no provocation; there should have not been guns involved. If you are an active participant in a fight and you find yourself losing; you don’t get to turn it into a gun fight. So either he really lucked out with the DA or he was attacked without cause. But being pro gun and believing that law abiding citizens should be able to carry (whether they have a permit or not) this is not a case that I would want to hold up to the public as justifying handgun carry. I’ll play the devils advocate here and say that because he knowingly violated the contract he had with the club, if the club can prove a financial loss because of this incident, they have grounds for civil action against Kitts as an innocent third party. Here’s a link to another story about it; although it doesn’t give much more info. http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/nov/29/gym-shooter-wont-be-charged-police-say-victim-star/